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BonerCat

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How effective is the DIRCM system compared to the SA-19 Tunguska, since the rocket is a Laser Guidence SAM system, it should be blinded by the DIRCM and miss its target. What do you think?

 

Tunguska use optical targeting/tracking but missile is guided via radio commands (not via radar).

 

So no launch warning, tracking or anything via RWR. Not possible to be blinded, jammed or countered other means than maneuvering or distracting crew from aiming.

 

Tunguska is connected to air defense network, so it finds targets via it, or over radio when someone tells heading and range etc.

It is capable to use own radar for searching, but reveals itself then. But typically would wait silently for target enter no escape zone via other sources information and then get a lock etc.

The cannons are ranged and tracked via radar, possible for optically as well with TV/FLIR with laser ranging.

 

So only means to detect is IR/UV sensors and to counter to maneuver or hide.

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FLIR and RWR is what I'm after. None of these in BS3

 

For what you need RWR when the L-370E50 (president-s for KA-50) detects radar guided missiles launches and flight in maximum of several hundred kilometers (read: Limited by weather) and tracks their flight. It does warn pilot if the tracked missile poses threat to aircraft by detecting it by range and heading, timing the automatic countermeasures for maximum effect.

 

So while you might not find when radar search and locks on you, you will detect missile incoming at you regardless is it from ground or air. Informing you the range and heading and possibly time of impact.

 

So dangerous ones would be AAA as radar guided missiles becomes detectable and so on avoidable.

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For what you need RWR when the L-370E50 (president-s for KA-50) detects radar guided missiles launches and flight in maximum of several hundred kilometers (read: Limited by weather) and tracks their flight. It does warn pilot if the tracked missile poses threat to aircraft by detecting it by range and heading, timing the automatic countermeasures for maximum effect.

 

So while you might not find when radar search and locks on you, you will detect missile incoming at you regardless is it from ground or air. Informing you the range and heading and possibly time of impact.

 

So dangerous ones would be AAA as radar guided missiles becomes detectable and so on avoidable.

 

 

I don't remember where but It was mentioned here in the ED forum that L-370E50 is for IR missiles, are you sure it's for radar guided missiles?

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:music_whistling:

200 km is fantastic! ))

Actually about 10 km.

 

This system can not discriminate missiles by danger or not, because missiles can approach not pure PN guidance but more sophisticated trajectories.

 

PS

200 km is possible.

If there is launching Space Shuttle. ;)

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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Im already reall excited, and will be so entrhilled if we get the INU drift + working INU update, Shkval filters Electrical systems detail

 

Me too, I do not expect too much from the BS3 but it would be good for her to be a complete study sim, plus the president S defence system will make it a nice bit of kit for the modern battlefield.... It would certainly serve the red forces for some years to come and clear the development path for a highly aggressive western attack helicopter....... Tiger perhaps?


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Tunguska use optical targeting/tracking but missile is guided via radio commands (not via radar).

 

So no launch warning, tracking or anything via RWR. Not possible to be blinded, jammed or countered other means than maneuvering or distracting crew from aiming.

 

Tunguska is connected to air defense network, so it finds targets via it, or over radio when someone tells heading and range etc.

It is capable to use own radar for searching, but reveals itself then. But typically would wait silently for target enter no escape zone via other sources information and then get a lock etc.

The cannons are ranged and tracked via radar, possible for optically as well with TV/FLIR with laser ranging.

 

So only means to detect is IR/UV sensors and to counter to maneuver or hide.

 

FYI, in DCS, when the tungunska spots you visually, she lights up her radar instantly. There is no sneaky rat coded into DCS.

Tungunska goes into red hot Death kill mode instantaneously.... It is why I love her.

Also with the new AI, Tungunska will have a go no matter what.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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I have had the BS since release. Im afraid it has to be said its junk as a weapon system. More of a target than a hunter.

 

 

The true King of the ground battle is the Longbow.

"You see, IronHand is my thing"

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I have had the BS since release. Im afraid it has to be said its junk as a weapon system. More of a target than a hunter.

 

 

The true King of the ground battle is the Longbow.

 

Ok then. Is it because you are flying it in high threat enviro's where helicopters would not be used or whats the deal? When I fly the BS in as close to real helo conditions as possible it seems quite up to the task. If you are going to just sit and hover like an Apache at Karbala of course you are going to be a target. High speed low level attack and egress.:thumbup:

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Ok then. Is it because you are flying it in high threat enviro's where helicopters would not be used or whats the deal? When I fly the BS in as close to real helo conditions as possible it seems quite up to the task. If you are going to just sit and hover like an Apache at Karbala of course you are going to be a target. High speed low level attack and egress.:thumbup:

 

YES, or you can basically Lob vikhrs by knowing distance ----> flight time to the target and you just sta covered behind trees terrain until the ATGM is like 3 sec away from impact then you climb up and let the vikhr ride onto the SA8´s ass

 

ive done that a couple times when there was no other way to kill the SA15 or OSA messign in my territory mate

 

hashtag

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YES, or you can basically Lob vikhrs by knowing distance ----> flight time to the target and you just sta covered behind trees terrain until the ATGM is like 3 sec away from impact then you climb up and let the vikhr ride onto the SA8´s ass

 

ive done that a couple times when there was no other way to kill the SA15 or OSA messign in my territory mate

 

hashtag

 

That's an interesting idea. But how do you launch without a shoot cue? Or do you lock em up, shoot, drop and then popup at the last moment?

 

Genuine question by the way - not trying to have an argument about whether it would work...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Wildcards BlackJack_sml.jpg

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That's an interesting idea. But how do you launch without a shoot cue? Or do you lock em up, shoot, drop and then popup at the last moment?

 

Genuine question by the way - not trying to have an argument about whether it would work...

 

i do it that way i laserrange find on the grass or basically a non aquireable terrain next to my actual tgt then dop ALT again overwrite LA by flipping it to manual mode and thens hoot and do the above

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FYI, in DCS, when the tungunska spots you visually, she lights up her radar instantly. There is no sneaky rat coded into DCS.

 

Must be on you only, as I often don't get any warning from the launch (unless having a MWS) as it stays silent until at cannon range when it activates radar.

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I don't remember where but It was mentioned here in the ED forum that L-370E50 is for IR missiles, are you sure it's for radar guided missiles?

 

The MWS doesn't care which seeker the missile has. It is capable to detect launches and track all missiles and generates a false-positive based the missile trajectories to notice that is there reason to warn a pilot from the missile or not.

 

So if your wingman launch a missile at your rear and further distance, the system does detect the launch but tracks the missile and notices it doesn't head on you. So it doesn't start counter measurement programs or alarm the pilot from the missile.

 

If the missile is detected and it is heading on you, then the system will raise alarm of incoming missile and guide to maneuver against it, and it will keep tracking it until it gets close enough for correctly timed counter measurement program.

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:music_whistling:

 

The system is capable to track multiple missiles all the time. It is continually tracking each missile trajectory and performing the calculations when to start counter measurements program for approaching missile and when to warn pilot from incoming missile instead just launched missile.

 

The system is very capable to keep situational awareness what is happening around. It is not just against a directly heading missiles or just by vector, but as well by range and their trajectory does they pose a danger to the protected aircraft. It doesn't perform a crazy counter measurement program at first moment when it detects a launch or if missile is flying near by, but it tracks missiles so they are actually threat to system and wait them to get at proper distance where counter measurement system is actually effective against it.

 

Any idiot knows that when it is stated in specs that its detection range is 200 km, that it is limited by only the environment situation, instead the sensor resolution or other technical limitations. Meaning the system is capable to detect missile launches and flying missiles as soon as possible the weather conditions allows.

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YES, or you can basically Lob vikhrs by knowing distance ----> flight time to the target and you just sta covered behind trees terrain until the ATGM is like 3 sec away from impact then you climb up and let the vikhr ride onto the SA8´s ass

 

ive done that a couple times when there was no other way to kill the SA15 or OSA messign in my territory mate

 

hashtag

 

Actually you shouldn't be able to do that.

 

When you launch the Vikhr, the Shkval system starts guidance via laser beam that is shaped continually to narrower and its power is increased by timer, that is estimation of the Vikhr distance from you. The idea is to keep the beam diameter about 7 meters on the Vikhr position, not narrower nor wider. And this is to minimize or completely avoid the target detecting it is targeted and guided on using laser. As many ground units (especially MBT's) has laser warning systems to detect when laser beam is anywhere near them, they get triggered for laser ranging and laser guidance from about 50 meters of the spot when they are somewhere side of it, and if spot is further than them so they are between spot and laser desginator then they can detect it far further distance, and if they are opposite side of the spot they can't detect it if there is no reflection (almost all laser energy is reflected back toward the designator, not much to sides and nothing on opposite sides). And the beam shaping with the laser energy increasement makes possible that target will not receive the laser warning system alarm than in last second if even then, as the Vikhr has reached the target in that moment.

 

The Vikhr guidance beam is coded for a four zones, and Vikhr rear end laser detectors will scan the laser code and it knows what is on what direction. So Vikhr knows how to steer itself toward the center of the coded cross by circling around the center until it gets center of it.

Then it will keep flying at center of the beam by constantly visiting each sector momentarily. Why you do not want to move beam radically so the Vikhr can keep track on what sector it is and fly toward the other zones to find the center.

 

Now if you cut the laser or you block it, the Vikhr missile gets readout from the last known sector, it doesn't know how far it is from the center but it only knows on what direction it needs to fly to see a another sector. Now when you blocked/cut laser, Vikhr starts maneuvering faster to direction where it is expecting to find the laser and expected sector code. And as it can't detect anything, it thinks it is lost and it will start steering faster to expected direction.

 

Now you can't just bring laser back on the target. As the Vikhr is far from the calculated 7 meter beam diameter and it is basically lost. Only way to get it back is that you aim laser where Vikhr is flying so it can capture the beam, find on what sector it is and start guiding itself back to expected pattern center. But as the Vikhr was in a deep circling phase in that moment, you can't "capture it" back inside beam as you would need to follow the Vikhr to get it more stable and then start guiding it back on your intended target by moving beam slowly back to target.

 

The Vikhr guidance doesn't stop on the moment the laser beam is cut and missile would fly straight, as it thinks it has just moved outside of the guidance beam and heads toward it, as it doesn't know was it cut off, blocked or moved.

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Actually you shouldn't be able to do that.

 

When you launch the Vikhr, the Shkval system starts guidance via laser beam that is shaped continually to narrower and its power is increased by timer, that is estimation of the Vikhr distance from you. The idea is to keep the beam diameter about 7 meters on the Vikhr position, not narrower nor wider. And this is to minimize or completely avoid the target detecting it is targeted and guided on using laser. As many ground units (especially MBT's) has laser warning systems to detect when laser beam is anywhere near them, they get triggered for laser ranging and laser guidance from about 50 meters of the spot when they are somewhere side of it, and if spot is further than them so they are between spot and laser desginator then they can detect it far further distance, and if they are opposite side of the spot they can't detect it if there is no reflection (almost all laser energy is reflected back toward the designator, not much to sides and nothing on opposite sides). And the beam shaping with the laser energy increasement makes possible that target will not receive the laser warning system alarm than in last second if even then, as the Vikhr has reached the target in that moment.

 

The Vikhr guidance beam is coded for a four zones, and Vikhr rear end laser detectors will scan the laser code and it knows what is on what direction. So Vikhr knows how to steer itself toward the center of the coded cross by circling around the center until it gets center of it.

Then it will keep flying at center of the beam by constantly visiting each sector momentarily. Why you do not want to move beam radically so the Vikhr can keep track on what sector it is and fly toward the other zones to find the center.

 

Now if you cut the laser or you block it, the Vikhr missile gets readout from the last known sector, it doesn't know how far it is from the center but it only knows on what direction it needs to fly to see a another sector. Now when you blocked/cut laser, Vikhr starts maneuvering faster to direction where it is expecting to find the laser and expected sector code. And as it can't detect anything, it thinks it is lost and it will start steering faster to expected direction.

 

Now you can't just bring laser back on the target. As the Vikhr is far from the calculated 7 meter beam diameter and it is basically lost. Only way to get it back is that you aim laser where Vikhr is flying so it can capture the beam, find on what sector it is and start guiding itself back to expected pattern center. But as the Vikhr was in a deep circling phase in that moment, you can't "capture it" back inside beam as you would need to follow the Vikhr to get it more stable and then start guiding it back on your intended target by moving beam slowly back to target.

 

The Vikhr guidance doesn't stop on the moment the laser beam is cut and missile would fly straight, as it thinks it has just moved outside of the guidance beam and heads toward it, as it doesn't know was it cut off, blocked or moved.

 

dude as always youdont get what im explaining

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That's an interesting idea. But how do you launch without a shoot cue? Or do you lock em up, shoot, drop and then popup at the last moment?

 

Genuine question by the way - not trying to have an argument about whether it would work...

 

Manual fire (deffalut by "A") on and you can achive 8.5km kill if ypur target is at a lower elevation.

8km if its on the same altitude as you.

The vikhir is faster than the sa15s missile, so if you manage to lunch first the vikhir will get there 1st.

It can be a bit of a gamble since you might miss. Therefore terrain maskimg is a MUST.

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Ok then. Is it because you are flying it in high threat enviro's where helicopters would not be used or whats the deal? When I fly the BS in as close to real helo conditions as possible it seems quite up to the task. If you are going to just sit and hover like an Apache at Karbala of course you are going to be a target. High speed low level attack and egress.:thumbup:

 

Problem is that people usually have near zero situational awareness where they are flying and what is happening around. And KA-50 is completely blind for radar emissions at this moment as the time of modeling of this specific unit it didn't have RWR.

 

As even Apache, you need to use terrain for masking. Know where the enemy is and how to approach and position for engagement. So NOE flying, really come slow and behind obstacles and keep good situational awareness by scouting areas and listening what ground troops talks with you etc.

 

It is a great recon helicopter as well behind enemy front lines, but you really need to know how to perform recon missions. It is not fast at all, it is not easy nor simple. Where a normal soldier is custom to travel easy roads, recon moves completely off the obvious routes and takes the "sightseeing" route. And to gather the intelligence, then moving even half a kilometer can be couple day job on foot.

 

If going for frontline engagement, any helicopter requires other arms assistance and help. It is otherwise like trying to be a quarterback alone against whole team.

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dude as always youdont get what im explaining

 

As always then, you don't know how to explain your claim that you can "lob" Vikhr when it can't be guided without constant guidance.

 

Please enlighten how are you "lobbin" your Vikhr without guidance?

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Manual fire (deffalut by "A") on and you can achive 8.5km kill if ypur target is at a lower elevation.

8km if its on the same altitude as you.

The vikhir is faster than the sa15s missile, so if you manage to lunch first the vikhir will get there 1st.

It can be a bit of a gamble since you might miss. Therefore terrain maskimg is a MUST.

 

Surprise is a must. Find a target without them finding you. Launch before they can launch at you.

And be ready to get behind cover if either you missed or the missile is flying toward you so regardless destruction of the target, the missile can kill you because proximity fuse.

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Google Translate

 

… Any idiot knows that when it is stated in specs that its detection range is 200 km, that it is limited by only the environment situation, instead the sensor resolution or other technical limitations. Meaning the system is capable to detect missile launches and flying missiles as soon as possible the weather conditions allows.

I would like to look at those mysterious "specs" of the L-370 that you talk so much about. :)

 

Once, in one fairly authoritative Russian military magazine, I read an article about the MWS, authored by a Russian military specialist who is a professor at the Academy of Military Science. He writes that, for example, the American AN/AAR-54 PMAWS provides detection of facts of missile launch at ranges up to 15km. Reading what you write about the capabilities of the Russian L-370-2 MWS, I involuntarily feel pride in my country. :)

 

Original in Russian

 

Хотелось бы мне посмотреть на те таинственные «спецификации» Л-370, о которых Вы так много рассказываете. :)

 

Как-то в одном довольно авторитетном российском военном журнале я читал статью о СПРА, за авторством одного российского военного специалиста, являющегося профессором Академии военных наук. Он пишет, что например американская PMAWS AN/AAR-54 обеспечивает обнаружение фактов пуска ракет на дальностях до 15 км. Читая то, что Вы пишете о возможностях российских УОР Л-370-2, я невольно испытываю гордость за свою страну. :)

 

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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Now if you cut the laser or you block it, the Vikhr missile gets readout from the last known sector, it doesn't know how far it is from the center but it only knows on what direction it needs to fly to see a another sector. Now when you blocked/cut laser, Vikhr starts maneuvering faster to direction where it is expecting to find the laser and expected sector code. And as it can't detect anything, it thinks it is lost and it will start steering faster to expected direction.

Actually, it only has one control surface, so has to fly a spiral. If it really put in full control deflection, it would just fly a tight spiral with a ballistic average path.

 

Logically, given the nature of the control surfaces and the flight path, if you're correct and there are 4 zones, I'd imagine they're concentric & give guidance about how hard to turn in to get back to the centre of the beam's scan zone.

Cheers.

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