F-14 FM Over Performing? Turn performance, etc.

Hello HB,

Please see the TacView that was recorded in reference to the F-16 turn performance. It seems that the F-14 may be dramatically over performing in terms of both ITR and STR.

Thanks

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4060718&postcount=114

Err look at the speed...

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The FM flys pretty close to the EM diagrams. The Cat is a rate fighter and it has decent turn performance and a very good thrust to weight ratio.

You better read the 01-F14AAP-1.1.

27 degrees a second is not just decent, it outmatches everything. But I suspect this is with flaps, so the flaps should get looked at.

20 TRT is excellent for 4th gen, F-16 should just come in under that with F-15.

Eurofighter apparently 27 degrees a second also.

Tomcat... nope.

Whilst the warcry of "It's close to EM tables" gets bandied around like a mantra, there's nothing close to the linked Tacview in real life or the world and it would be imprudent to suggest this is within expectations.

You better read the 01-F14AAP-1.1.

Where in that doc do you manage to find anything suggesting an STR even remotely close to what exists in the game now? Are you really saying that losing ~2000lbs and some drag will make your plane go from 16deg/s STR to 27?

I haven't been able to replicate this has anyone else been able too?

Well, you did spike over 10g and lost a lot of speed on your maneuvers. And judging from the low stability, I'd say you were pretty much pulling far beyond the envelope of the aircraft. If Heatblur hadn't nerfed the stress damage for some reason, you would probably have lost your wings at some point during that.

So, not exactly a good test.

Even a Cessna 172 can pull 10gs ... once.

Where in that doc do you manage to find anything suggesting an STR even remotely close to what exists in the game now? Are you really saying that losing ~2000lbs and some drag will make your plane go from 16deg/s STR to 27?

losing~2780lbs just missiles, ~3000lbs with adapter. The 27 maybe is ITR, but STR 18 to 20 deg/s with half fuel without problem at 5000ft～Clean configuration.

The E-M graphs we have access to have the structural limit at 6.5Gs. The aircraft is capable of much more than that and as a consequence its ITR is actually much higher than reported. STR should be about correct since Ps=0 is well below the structural limit in the rate band.

losing~2780lbs just missiles, ~3000lbs with adapter. The 27 maybe is ITR, but STR 18 to 20 deg/s with half fuel without problem at 5000ft～Clean configuration.

My bad, it was indeed ~3000lbs (clean F-14B with 50% fuel in dcs is 52660lbs). Nevertheless, that still doesn't explain how it does 27 STR (yes, sustained, check the link in the OP and watch that tacview file) except the FM being busted.

The E-M graphs we have access to have the structural limit at 6.5Gs. The aircraft is capable of much more than that and as a consequence its ITR is actually much higher than reported. STR should be about correct since Ps=0 is well below the structural limit in the rate band.

This is why Mover said that killing an F-14 in an F-18 is like "clubbing baby seals"... because the pilots had to limit themselves in BFM training... but make no mistake, if his life was really on the line... the F-14 pilots' flaps would come out, shit would be over-stressed, and he'd win that turn rate fight 100% of the time...

Also, if you look at the thrust-to-wing-loading ratio of the F-14 compared to the f-15 and f-16, the f-14 wins in spades... but the F-16 is significantly easier to fly at the edge of its performance envelope, than the f-14, without hugely risking the airframe.

Personally, I typically can sustain between 20 and 22 degrees per second at less than 5000 ft MSL with around 8000 lbs of fuel in the f-14... but that's with quite poor rendering from tacview tracks, so who knows what it really is... but it's very close to what i've seen of almost all of the E-M graphs, as mattag08 notes above.

If anyone is complaining, they should be complaining about the completely abysmal performance of the F-18... mainly the insane drag that the flaps introduce... it's just crazy.

My bad, it was indeed ~3000lbs (clean F-14B with 50% fuel in dcs is 52660lbs). Nevertheless, that still doesn't explain how it does 27 STR (yes, sustained, check the link in the OP and watch that tacview file) except the FM being busted.

before this update the STR is 19 to 20 with half fuel at 5000ft.

I looked at this tac file so for people who do not own the advanced license of tacview, here's what I observe:

He managed to get a fluctuating turn rate ranging from 25 to 29 dps for more than 1 minute.

In the process his speed was ranging from 325-350 TAS.

His altitude was ranging from 50-500ft ASL.

His AoA was ranging from 22 to 26 degrees.

This tac file also shows multiple data points of 35 dps ITR

The question of landing flaps was brought up and here's the answer from the source of the tac file: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4061121&postcount=135

Only flaps that were used were the maneuvering flaps in my tacview not the full flaps

However, couple people tried to replicate this in the F16 thread, including me (I tested with 30% fuel at SL and 7 degrees Celcius of temperature), and none of us got even close.

Maybe more of you guys can go and try for yourself and see if this is indeed a bug or not.

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Update: So I went on to further test this, here's what I got, I had unlimited fuel on, every testing was done below 1000ft ASL, the jet was clean without Phenoix pylons and I was aimming at 320-350 kt of airspeed, which may or may not be its corner speed under the specific conditions.

1. On 15 degree Celcius, 50% fuel. I was sustaining about 21~22 dps of turn, very reasonable as I believe.

2. On 15 degree Celcius, 10% fuel. I was sustaining about 24~25 dps of turn.

3. On -10 degree Celcius, 50% fuel. I was sustaining about 25~26 dps of turn, very close to what that tac file was claiming.

4. On -10 degree Celcius, 10% fuel. I get a F22 Raptor.

I'm not sure what the atmosphere condition was for that tac file, but I'm wondering if this cold weather behavior is realistic or not?

I haven't been able to replicate this has anyone else been able too?

Nope.

Well, it would be really helpful if the OP or the creator of the tacview file would chime in and add some information on how exactly and under which conditions he flew that..

Kind regards,

Snappy

I looked at this tac file so for people who do not own the advanced license of tacview, here's what I observe:

 

He managed to get a fluctuating turn rate ranging from 25 to 29 dps for more than 1 minute.

In the process his speed was ranging from 325-350 TAS.

His altitude was ranging from 50-500ft ASL.

His AoA was ranging from 22 to 26 degrees.

This tac file also shows multiple data points of 35 dps ITR

 

The question of landing flaps was brought up and here's the answer from the source of the tac file: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4061121&postcount=135

Only flaps that were used were the maneuvering flaps in my tacview not the full flaps

 

However, couple people tried to replicate this in the F16 thread, including me (I tested with 30% fuel at SL and 7 degrees Celcius of temperature), and none of us got even close.

 

Maybe more of you guys can go and try for yourself and see if this is indeed a bug or not.

 

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Update: So I went on to further test this, here's what I got, I had unlimited fuel on, every testing was done below 1000ft ASL, the jet was clean without Phenoix pylons and I was aimming at 320-350 kt of airspeed, which may or may not be its corner speed under the specific conditions.

1. On 15 degree Celcius, 50% fuel. I was sustaining about 21~22 dps of turn, very reasonable as I believe.

2. On 15 degree Celcius, 10% fuel. I was sustaining about 24~25 dps of turn.

3. On -10 degree Celcius, 50% fuel. I was sustaining about 25~26 dps of turn, very close to what that tac file was claiming.

4. On -10 degree Celcius, 10% fuel. I get a F22 Raptor.

 

I'm not sure what the atmosphere condition was for that tac file, but I'm wondering if this cold weather behavior is realistic or not?

Unkown but I have heard it said by some people before that it is not so i'd lean towards no its not.

Tend to agree, the slightly higher air density of the cold air accounting for a roughly 20% increase in available sustainable turn rate (compared to the standard 15degree temp) at same 50% fuel state seems a bit high at first glance,even if both ,lift and engine output get gains from it.

But can‘t say really ..would be good to hear from the developers on this.

Kind regards Snappy

I've received word that the HB devs are investigating this situation.

A bit late for the discussion, but it was a long day....

I couldn't replicate his flight either and here is the video i made for that other post:

However, the more tests we do, i think the more likely were are to figure out if it's a corrupt install, corrupt track, some weird bug or an isolated incident. So far no one has been able to reproduce it.

I've never seen anything remotely close to that on the deck in almost a year of being involed in testing. In fact, I went backwards in builds the other night after seeing that track and still couldn't match it anywhere since release.

This is one of those situations where having the info bar and axis display in the cockpit view on film is going to be the only real proofing given broken replay tracks and Tacview interpolating between data points. We have to see exactly what is going on.

Yeah, I have never been able to get that turn rate in the F-14, so I don't know what was happening with that Tacview.