First Module Reccommendations (I've researched, but advice welcome)

I'll start by saying I've spent hours and hours researching this via google, youtube, and these forums, but have come to something of an impasse where actual feedback based on what I'm wanting to do combined with user experience is welcome.

Background:

I have thousands of hours of flight sim experience at this point, starting with Strike Commander (more of an arcade game, but such a great one for the F16) and then on to F22-ADF (which later became F-22 ADF). A decent amount of time in FS2k, but civilian craft never appealed to me as much. I spent some time in Janes sims as well, but life started interrupting at that point.

Now it's been a decent while,(~10 years?), and DCS has been appealing for some time, but the allure of VR is what really pulled me in. I now have an Oculus Rift and a GTX 1080. While RAM is still lacking slightly, I finally feel I can fly without being distracted by insufficient hardware. The free craft are enjoyable, but WW2 craft have never appealed like the Jets of the 70s and 80s. The SU-25 is more my style but not exactly what I'm wanting to invest time in learning, (The SU-25 is a tad slow, and not as nimble as what I'm looking for, and also not a study level craft) which leads me to this point of "Time to buy a plane".

What I'm looking for:

My primary goals currently are to learn flying and spend some time doing high speed low level flights, with future proofing options for ground strikes, some light air combat (maybe dogfights? more interested in ground target strikes though).

Being my first study level aircraft, I'm wanting to keep things relatively straight forward, frankly while I love the A10 and F18 and will probably get them as a later purchase, I feel those are not the best craft for me to start out in. (A10 misses the high speed aspect, and F-18 is perhaps too much of a plane to start out in, however it does hit all the marks I'm looking for).

I'm currently looking most at the F5 and the Mirage. The F5 appeals because I love it's looks and cockpit, plus it's a pretty decent multirole craft, if outdated. Another major bonus: The cockpit is in English.

The Mirage appeals because it's more modern, faster, more nimble, etc. A hangup for me is the non-english cockpit. I know there are mods for this, but they are unofficial and no guarantee they will work at a later date.

The F-18 does fit the goals, but again..I'm uncertain if it would be a good first craft, especially when I could buy both a plane and a terrain module for the same price.

And so, I rely on the expertise of the community to help me make the best decision. Thanks in advance!

The viggen would be a perfect fit for what you said you want.

The mirage is an interceptor with secondary A-G abilities, it's not designed to fly low, but to fly high and fast. Play load wise you get more or less the same ordinance as the F-5. I would not advise it for you considering you are interested in A-G more than A-A.

while the f-5 is an excellent module and a true study-level aircraft, there is in fact not so much to study about, since it is such a simple design.

that might sound good for a "first buy", but when i got it as my second jet after the a-10c, i was a little bit dissapointed, when it took me only a weekend to learn it. of course it probably takes month or years to truly master it, but just from learning the systems, there is really not much to it.

also the f-5 is not ideal for going low and fast, especially with heavy ordnance, the wing load is so high, that it flies a bit like a super overweight rocket. the a-10c is definitely more fun going low - albeit very slow, as you mentioned. i personally do not own it, but you should check out the viggen. its built to be low and fast with a little bit of dogfighting ability as a bonus...

A similar question came up else where. I'm going to post my reply:

I'm not sure if asking others what they would pick is the best way to solve your issue. What is it that you want to get out of DCS?

 

 

My opinion on DCS as it is currently is that more modern aircraft work better in the simulation. The simplified AI flight model and the quirks of their spotting abilities are more exaggerated when you're flying stuff like WWII aircraft of the F-86. But there are exceptions. I consider the MiG-15 to be a pretty good module to obtain with its main weakness being the lack of an intercept target (ie B-29's). There is also the issue of unit variety, which is better for new planes. This pretty much makes the F/A-18 a top pick, but the A-10, AV-8, and Mirage 2000 are also good fits for DCS.

 

 

 

From your list in the poll, I would drop the F-5 and MiG-21 toward the bottom if you want to focus on air to air combat. It's not because they are bad modules, but they highlight some of the issues I mentioned above. The F-5 lacks some proper wingman commands for a fighter which makes coordinated combat with wingmen more difficult and both aircraft make it obvious that DCS lacks command and control/communication with other units. Keeping these in mind they can both be fun, but I think to get the most out of them you will have to wait for DCS to improve some more. They're good "casual" modules that you can fly on the side from time to time for sure.

 

 

You mentioned the L-39 and I would agree it's a good module to focus on. It's really fun to fly and can fit in a good variety of combat rolls. It does suffer a little from the same issues as the F-5 and MiG, but it's less of a fighter than they are so it doesn't feel as much like a critical part of the sim is missing.

Your interest in AG changes things a bit, like putting the F-5 back on the higher end of the list, but I have to admit that I am more of an AA flyer. I haven't actually used the F-5 in any AG missions besides casually practicing bomb runs on static targets.

The Viggen and AV-8 should also suite you fairly well, although I haven't spent enough time to get overly familiar with either just yet. I'm used to US cockpit layouts so I've been able to figure out some the Harrier with just trial and error. The Viggen is a little harder to decipher but it's been fun to use so far.

As for the F-18, I don't find it particularly overbearing. It's still in progress however and notable for you, it's missing a lot of AG functionality for now. I'm more or less using it as a stand in for DCS F-15C should that ever be added. If you're comfortable with study sims I don't think it will overwhelm you. The biggest issue is that what you want to do with it hasn't been coded in yet.

And this is why I ask! I honestly hadn't looked at the Viggen that much, as I wasn't that familiar with that aircraft. (Knew it existed, but not much beyond that). Looking into it now, thanks guys!

F-5

If the complexity of F/A-18C is the only thing preventing you from getting it, I would not worry. It is still pretty simple because many features are not implemented yet. You will learn as they are added. It is also very easy to fly and you don't have to do Case I carrier landings at all if you don't want to :).

If the complexity of F/A-18C is the only thing preventing you from getting it, I would not worry. It is still pretty simple because many features are not implemented yet. You will learn as they are added. It is also very easy to fly and you don't have to do Case I carrier landings at all if you don't want to :).

What he said :thumbup:

I recently went through the same decision process and ended up getting the AV-8b. Not so fast but the trade off was it has two multi function displays, which I find just great for nicely handling all the information that comes at you. The Viggen was the other contender, and it lost out in the end due to non english cockpit and no multi function displays. What it does have is speed. I am sure I will get it at some point.

I don't regret getting the Harrier, I still can't land it on the Tarawa but I know that will just be a matter of practice. In the mean time it will do conventional takeoff and landing just fine. It's weak points or lack of range and lower speed, and she can be tricky at times to fly. It's strong points are good general ground attack, good selection of rockets, laser guided bombs and two types of maverick missile.

If you are having trouble deciding make a chart, put the characteristics you want down the side, put the aircraft across the top and then rate them, add up all the numbers and then just pick the one that feels right based on the scores and your impression.

Of the Viggen, Harrier and Hornet, you can't really go wrong.

Even the most complicated aircraft in the sim can be learned in progressive steps, so I'd say don't let apparent complication sway you. The nice thing about DCS is you can own all the modules if you want, so this isn't a "Game breaking" decision, either.

What aircraft strikes your interest the most? Fly that. The F-18 certainly meets all your mentioned interests, and with it currently in beta, you can learn all that is currently modeled, and grow with it. As others have mentioned, there are several aircraft that are more complete that you may enjoy as well.

Frankly, with the cost of a module being about the same as one night out to dinner with the wife, (or less, depending on your area) any module is cheap. Having too many options to choose from is a nice problem to have :)

If the complexity of F/A-18C is the only thing preventing you from getting it, I would not worry. It is still pretty simple because many features are not implemented yet. You will learn as they are added. It is also very easy to fly and you don't have to do Case I carrier landings at all if you don't want to :).

+1 :thumbup:

The Mirage appeals because it's more modern, faster, more nimble, etc. A hangup for me is the non-english cockpit. I know there are mods for this, but they are unofficial and no guarantee they will work at a later date.

Razbam is afaik working on an english cockpit. You can choose it in game now, but it doesn't have an effect yet (and the French cockpit isn't anoing as a russian one is, you only have to remember that "A" is off and "M" is on, but it has very good training missions and a campaign that teaches and uses a lot of the functions the M-2000C offers).

In my opinion the M-2000C has more A2G capabilities as the F-5E, as it has CCIP, CCRP and INS bombing modes that the F-5E does not have.

The mentioned Viggen has it's "downsides" with the unique computer as well. As you think the F/A-18C is a bit to complex to you the viggen would also be.

I would not recommend an early access module for you as a "beginner" (at least in DCS) and i think you would be a bit disappointed as the Harrier and the F/A-18 are not very complete yet.

You could wait and see what the F-14 brings with it's early access, it should have some A2G capabilities as it comes with the the LANTIRN (but may be not at initial release).

But i have to point out that, aside the F-5E is considered more A2G than A2A, and M-2000C more A2A than A2G in this forum, the M-2000Cs ground pounding capabilities are heavily underestimated in this community (as you see on the comments and in the multiplayer servers like Through The Inferno or Havoc's Company which do not offer A2G missions for the mirage).

In the end, i would choose the plane what i find more attractive, that would be in your case the F-5E, i think. If you want the best A2G capabilities already in game, it would be the A-10C, so just take the plane you like.

Get the F-A-18C

1. You said yourself "...F-18 is perhaps too much of a plane to start out in, however it does hit all the marks I'm looking for"

2. It is "complex", and it will get more complex as systems/features are added, but you can fly it just like the F-5 (dumb bombs, guns, and sidewinders), and never touch the RADAR. - It is as complex or as simple as you want to make it.

3. Go with your gut/heart. - DCS is a study sim. So pick a plane that you want to study...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3636724&postcount=1

You'll have the opportunity to try the Hornet out for free this weekend. Should help you make the call as to whether it's overwhelming.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3636724&postcount=1

 

You'll have the opportunity to try the Hornet out for free this weekend. Should help you make the call as to whether it's overwhelming.

What happens if someone tries the F/A-18 and says they don't like it? How do you take it back?

What happens if someone tries the F/A-18 and says they don't like it? How do you take it back?

They tested this last weekend with the Su-33, like other steam free to play weekends it's gone from your library at the end of the free trial.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3636724&postcount=1

 

You'll have the opportunity to try the Hornet out for free this weekend. Should help you make the call as to whether it's overwhelming.

I saw this, and it make me really happy...and then I remembered I'm out of town this weekend! :doh:

Sounds like Harrier might be your cup of English tea (to be read with a British accent). It is a fast ground attack aircraft that can hold its own in a2a battle. And it is only going to get better.

VTOL and ability to refuel / rearm with engine running means minimal downtime between flights.

Startup procedure is short so it literally takes 30 seconds to go from cold/empty aircraft to flying with CAP / light CAS load.

And it can take a pounding just like A-10. Can't fly with a wing missing though, but nobody is perfect.

On a downside, wings tend to snap off during high-G maneuvers and VTOL has a bit of a learning curve. Some bugs are present (early release) but nothing game breaking.

But other than that - think of it as cross between A-10/F-18/UH-1H.

They tested this last weekend with the Su-33, like other steam free to play weekends it's gone from your library at the end of the free trial.

I didn't realize this was a Steam only offer.

I didn't realize this was a Steam only offer.

It's both, just Steam "jumped the guns" as Wags said in another thread.

I wouldn't reccomend the F-18 as it is no where near complete. The Harrier is awesome but again not complete and going through growing pains. I would lean towards the F-5 because it is the easiet plane to learn systems wise. The Mirage is a great dogfighter and a decent strike aircraft. Actually better than the F-5 because of CCIP/CCRP as was mentioned although I believe INS bombing has not been enabled. It is however a more difficult aircraft to learn to use very well. So the F-5 would be a better starter aircraft but if you're not intimidated by learning systems and can only afford one go Mirage. The Viggen is excellent module but not a competent dogfighter and its rather difficult to learn well.

 

What I'm looking for:

 

My primary goals currently are to learn flying and spend some time doing high speed low level flights, with future proofing options for ground strikes, some light air combat (maybe dogfights? more interested in ground target strikes though).

I'm going to immediately rule out the Mirage for you. It's not very capable for A2G work. Your only three A2G weapon options are dumb bombs, LGBs, and rockets. The dumb bombs are limited to CCIP deliveries for high-drag and CCRP deliveries for low drag/LGBs. LGBs you can't use without buddy lase as the Mirage can't carry a targeting pod.

The Viggen is perfect for what you want. It's simple, easy to fly, and is designed for low, fast, one pass haul ass strikes. I think the most difficult part is the weapons' system logic, but that may just be my personal fossilization of USAF/USN logic conflicting with the Swedish logic. There might be an English cockpit mod out there, but honestly non-English cockpits--that use the Roman alphabet at least--aren't really an issue. Acronyms are acronyms regardless of language, and I cannot remember the last time I actually read a switch or gauge label. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between an airspeed indicator, VVI, ADI, and engine temp gauge just by taking a quick glance at them. Cyrillic on the other hand.....

I would also consider the Hornet. I see you mentioned it may be "too much of a jet," and I can see that considering the systems are more complex. But, it can also do essentially what the Viggen does with the added capability of defending itself quite well in A2A. It's also incredibly easy to fly, and I find the cockpit layout to be quite intuitive with ample spacing between switches.

If you're afraid that the Hornet or Hog are too complex as the first aircraft - don't. They are actually easier to employ and use efficiently than other aircraft mentioned in this thread. You have a navigation system that nicely shows you where you are on a moving map. You have sensors that nicely show you enemy position and weapons that let you hit the enemy with high precision.

Harrier would be also in this category but it is unfinished and bugged. Unlike the Hornet, it has no training missions, limited documentation and the bugs are all over the place, making it a poor choice for a beginner. For example the primary bombing mode (CCRP) is bugged since the release. And you still can't control bombs release interval.

Viggen has a very specific mission profile and quirky avionics that actually require more attention from the pilot. It's very cool if you know what you're doing, but I'm not sure it's good training material as a first aircraft. It's not a point and shoot kind of weapon.

Other planes mentioned in this thread have very limited a2g capabilities. The F5 is basically fixed sights, WWII style bombing only.

Actually better than the F-5 because of CCIP/CCRP as was mentioned although I believe INS bombing has not been enabled.

INS bombing is enabled since release. Campaign Spoiler:

Harrier would be also in this category but it is unfinished and bugged. Unlike the Hornet, it has no training missions, limited documentation and the bugs are all over the place, making it a poor choice for a beginner.

An opinion is an opinion but this statement makes it look like the Hornet is not bugged and unfinished but it is the opposite: the A2A radar never worked good since release and it seems there is a long time to go to be able to do BVR with the F/A-18C, the mentioned training missions are the very basic things like ramp start and landing (on an air field not on a carrier). Before the hornet gets the Targeting Pot and FLIR the FLIR system will be reworked from ED, so it takes quite a lot of time until the TPOD is available. The Harrier has DMT (build in targeting pod, but without laser), FLIR and TPOD (with laser) with the old system (same logic as A-10C) already ingame and it works fine.

I would not recommend both of them because of the mentioned bugs and the unfinished state (thats OK, because they are early acces) as a first high fidelity module. I only want to point out that the downsides of the EA release applies to both modules and not only the harrier.

In addition to not start a flame war: many people aren't happy with Razbam as it has (for them) not the very high standards (in system depth and "art" like sound and graphic) of ED or Heathblur modules. This might be true, but however the M-2000C and Harrier are nice and high quality modules with not nearly the worse state some people are talking about.

If you had a look to civil aircraft sims, the 3rd party aircraft at the price range of the M-2000C, the Razbam modules a far better than these (and i will never ever buy again add on aircraft for these civil sims because of this, except maybe very high quality planes, but the price tag of these is very much over the DCS modules).

But if this is a very important point for you, you have to take look into maybe some youtube videos or reviews of the modules of Razbam to see if it fits your expectations.

Go F18. I was a civilan (P3dv4) Airbus guy till the F/A 18 hit the store. Now I am in the process of mastering it, (I finally managed to complete an A/A refueling last week, that was really fullfilling). I am going step by step, slowly enjoying it. With the experience you have you can manage pretty well basic tasks as startup, takeoff, fly, landing (here you should apply very well the thrust to climb/descend rule as as the landing is AOA based both on ground/carrier, but there are pretty good tutorials out there). Go for it, I had no regrets, it's beautiful and fun.