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Old 08-20-2019, 11:08 PM   #11
Reticuli
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Originally Posted by M1Combat View Post
So you're saying that you would push stick left to command a specific roll rate, rate would maintain when stick centered, then push stick right to reduce roll rate?

Sounds like my own personal hell...
Hah hah hah... no, you command a rate with input and it holds an attitude when inputs end. You skipped a part I think. You're definitely describing the yaw trimmer option in Black Shark in some situations, though :-)
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:34 PM   #12
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Oh OK .

I was like WHY!!??!??!!!
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:30 AM   #13
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If that were how it worked, MAC with a keyboard would actually work ..
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by M1Combat View Post
So you're saying that you would push stick left to command a specific roll rate, rate would maintain when stick centered, then push stick right to reduce roll rate?

Sounds like my own personal hell...

Back in the day there was a nice sim with lots of flyable planes for the AMIGA that actually just behaved like this if you didn't have an analog stick like me... that was hell, but the sim was so awesome nevertheless due to its sheer variety of possibilities.


I've seen auto trim in a few sims, and it always added a slight trim input the same way the control inputs were made, so you'd slowly progress back to the center while trying to hold attitude.
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:13 PM   #15
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If that were how it worked, MAC with a keyboard would actually work ..
I don't fly Longbow 2, EECH, nor X-Plane with a keyboard. Do people fly the F-16 with a keyboard in DCS? Did the Gemini astronauts maneuver with a keyboard when docking? Did Neil Armstrong land on the moon with a keyboard?
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Eldur View Post
Back in the day there was a nice sim with lots of flyable planes for the AMIGA that actually just behaved like this if you didn't have an analog stick like me... that was hell, but the sim was so awesome nevertheless due to its sheer variety of possibilities.


I've seen auto trim in a few sims, and it always added a slight trim input the same way the control inputs were made, so you'd slowly progress back to the center while trying to hold attitude.


OMG that was "Birds OF Prey" and it WAS my own personal hell. It was a pretty good attempt at a "flight sim" with a lot of my favorite aircraft at the time but it turned out that the programmer had absolutely no clue how planes actually flew or how a flight sim should work. You had to knock the stick to one side a few times to give the plane some roll to start turning then knock it back the other way to stop the roll and let the plane turn for a while. If you didn't the plane would just keep corkscrewing through the sky.

Lol watch this to see how far we've (I've) come. Birds of Prey is from the prehistoric era of computer flight simulators. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmoVyqVA3Aw


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Old 08-21-2019, 07:08 PM   #17
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Did Neil Armstrong land on the moon with a keyboard?

Actually I think he did. It was called the DSKY or The DSKEY (dis-key) input module which operated the AGC.

The Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) is a digital computer produced for the Apollo program that was installed on board each Apollo command module (CM) and Apollo Lunar Module (LM). The AGC provided computation and electronic interfaces for guidance, navigation, and control of the spacecraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

There was no "joystick" on the Lunar Landing Module.





The DSKEY input module (right) shown alongside the Apollo Guidance Computer's main casing (left).
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:07 PM   #18
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Actually I think he did. It was called the DSKY or The DSKEY (dis-key) input module which operated the AGC.

The Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) is a digital computer produced for the Apollo program that was installed on board each Apollo command module (CM) and Apollo Lunar Module (LM). The AGC provided computation and electronic interfaces for guidance, navigation, and control of the spacecraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

There was no "joystick" on the Lunar Landing Module.





The DSKEY input module (right) shown alongside the Apollo Guidance Computer's main casing (left).
Rotation:



Translation:



Inside the LM:



Here he is flying the demonstrator:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpULVqOyYG4

And ejecting from it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJa4yQ0AIbU

There were manual controls in the module and it's how Apollo 11 actually executed that touch down. And the primary AFCS mode for both manual moon landing and for Apollo and Gemini orbital docking was rate command, attitude hold for the joystick. I'm not talking about interplanetary navigation or orbital capture. The guidance computers had an issue of timing-out during final descent stages, anyway, so I believe even the later Apollo landings did their touch downs manually and defeated the autopilot, too. The computer's biggest role during the actual landing was controlling the length and intensity of the initial de-orbit burn.
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Last edited by Reticuli; 08-21-2019 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:54 PM   #19
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There were manual controls in the module and it's how Apollo 11 actually executed that touch down. And the primary AFCS mode for both manual moon landing and for Apollo and Gemini orbital docking was rate command, attitude hold for the joystick. I'm not talking about interplanetary navigation or orbital capture. The guidance computers had an issue of timing-out during final descent stages, anyway, so I believe even the later Apollo landings did their touch downs manually and defeated the autopilot, too. The computer's biggest role during the actual landing was controlling the length and intensity of the initial de-orbit burn.

The AGC was essential from the moment they undocked the LEM to the moment they landed, and again from the time they took off to the time they docked. The landing, never mind the whole mission, would not have been possible without the AGC. Manual is a bit of a misnomer with regards to the LEM control philosophy, too.


The LEM had no direct actuation of RCS. It was entirely FBW through the AGC. If the AGC went offline, they fell back to the AGS (abort guidance section, a backup computer). If neither was available, they floated in space until they were rescued or died. There was no manual control available.


When Apollo 11 touched down, their final modes included rate based attitude, and commanded vertical speed. The same modes every other landing occurred in, even those without computer alarms. The only time there was a computer issue was during the Apollo 11 landing, and the FBW (including the DAP, digital autopilot) was functioning the whole time. Had it not been, an abort would have been mandatory to save the crew. The DSKY was blank for extended periods (updating it was a "low priority" job and was disregarded), and they couldn't keep an updated display up, but that was okay, Houston radioed up what they needed from the missing display.



Fortunately, due to the functionality of the scheduler inside the executive (a primitive scheduler akin to an operating system on the AGC), the computer understood the priority of operating programs and was able to maintain state and execution operations in order to keep the crew alive and touch them down.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:15 PM   #20
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There was no manual control available.


When Apollo 11 touched down, their final modes included rate based attitude, and commanded vertical speed.
Interesting, though I've never seen anyone claim that something like the F-16 stick is not "manual control" just because there's a FBW intermediary going on in between the stick inputs and what the ship control surfaces (or in the case of the LM, the RCS) is doing. As for "rate based attitude", that's rotational rate commanding with input and attitude hold without. I never said the stick directly controlled the thrusters with a physical pully or something. That's kind of a given.

Other common AFCS modes, including on FBW helos for landing with gear down, are the commanding of lateral velocities with the stick (when stick inputs are zero, ship attempts to maintain position) and vertical velocity with some other flight control, such as the collective or a lever on it.

***

I have figured out some issues with the new AutoTrimmer:

1) It appears separate from the manual trim state and requires the manual trim state to be completely cleared, otherwise you get a limitation of the full available deflection in the opposite direction of the manual trim state.

2) And rather than apply additional control input from the current AutoTrimmer attitude hold state, new stick input completely overrides the AutoTrimmer background state, causing it to bounce down to lesser stick inputs. Weeble wobble effect. Not fun. Makes fine inputs with AutoTrimmer on in options pretty much impossible.

Close to being useable, though.
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