Recent Aerial Victories in South Asia

Hello, I’m starting this topic because a conversation about this got out of hand in the JF-17 livery thread. We were discussing what may have really happened February 27th over Kashmir, where a MiG-21 Bison operates by Indian Air Force was shot down. There were claims made by both sides. Here’s my personel thoughts I hope start this conversation and that we can stay calm and logical about. I’m going to ignore any timeline of events as even official statements at the time can be hard to trust. I personally am only willing to accept the MiG-21 victory, I’ll believe Su-30 if I see it. In the beginning I though it was by JF-17 but a few things made me change my mind, even ignoring the AMRAAM found by India

https://fighterjetsworld.com/air/f-16s-not-jf-17s-that-shot-down-iaf-mig-21-and-su-30-mki-fighter-jets-during-operation-swift-retort/17966/

Another user had discounted this source but it does have some of the better quality version of these photos. While I believe PAF has a reason to say the Su-30(India did say they had to escape AMRAAMS) was shot down of course, I don’t know why this “memorial” would say the incorrect aircraft type pilot and weapon. To me this is pretty clear that even if no Su-30 was shot down, the MiG-21 Bison was at least shot by an AMRAAM from F-16.

Other people have shown photos of JF-17 with MiG-21 and Su-30 kill markings. While this could be the work of our enemy photoshop(;)) if it is real, does it have to be an actual aerial victory? I think a lot of us have seen kill markings based off of simulated kills(https://www.google.com/amp/s/theaviationgeekclub.com/unique-photo-shows-usaf-a-10-with-f-22-and-f-16-kill-marks/amp).

I am having trouble finding good translation of the award ceremony video, but it seems they are F-16 pilots, I would appreciate if anyone can find a good translation or summary of who the pilots are and that they do fly F-16.

I hope we can stay on topic and not break any rules, if there is any problem or something I can do to to not incite a flame war please let me know

No matter where you are from or what you believe happened that day, I value your opinion and welcome

If I remember correctly the very fact that Pakistan has received F-16s is tied to certain conditions on their use, which might explain why some disinformation about employed plane types exists. But then, I might remember that wrong.

Stay on topic and not break any rules... good luck with that plan!

One thing I learned from the skirmishes was how India really want acquire much longer range missiles to battle the Amraam. Well at least one of the things ED modeled correctly.

One thing I learned from the skirmishes was how India really want acquire much longer range missiles to battle the Amraam. Well at least one of the things ED modeled correctly.

Already happened https://www.janes.com/article/90192/india-signs-usd700-million-deal-with-russia-for-1-000-additional-air-to-air-missiles

Thanks for starting it.

I can my whole story.

So after 27th when the planes were shot down, an army representative told that no f16s were used. So the only possible explanation was that the jf 17shot down both the aircrafts.

That's what I believed. But in the ceremony the interviews of the pilots who shot down the plane were from f16 squadrons(the pilot who shot down mig was wearing 29 aggressors patch) and as far as I know pilots from a certain squadrons don't hope in and out of planes from another squadron i.e F16 pilots wont just sit and fly jf17 just because it was made to replace them.

It requires great amount of training to jump from one plane to another, An airforce will only spend that time to train pilots for another aircraft if they have confirmed that a squadron will be replaced with new aircrafts. 29 aggressor operates f16 MLU and there are no plans of replacing them with jf17. currently Pakistan is only planning on replacing mirage fleets with jf17 first.

Here is a clean HQ screenshot from the ceremony (patches):

Now when DCAS(opreations) was asked point blank (in the award ceremony) that "Sir there is a question, there (in india) was a propaganda that f 16 shot down the planes. so please tell us if it was f16 jf17 mirage what was it". DCAS replied(rough translation) "It is not a good thing(to praise ourselves), but when we have slapped someone, whether I used my left hand or my right, is irrelevant.

Now why I am keen on saying they were f16s that show down the plane is because there is a monument build at PAF mushaf.

Here it is.

with all that said, if someone knows that this is all wrong or whatever please share your source .I am more than happy to change my mind. Not here for argument.

I go with facts. I know For a fact that we shot down mig 21.

su 30 is a claim. and I do believe the claim that we shot down su30.

If there is ever a proof then i'll know it for a Fact. non the less I believe the claim

One of the reasons I do not believe in the picture that shows it will kill marks is because

we have seen how PAF does there kill marks on JF17 that shot down Iranian Drone. There is a plane outline and the date of the kill.

Both pictures with su30 and mig 21 have no kill dates and most importantly there are no nose numbers on both planes. EVERY jf17 contains last 3 digits of tail number on the nose

Since no nose or tails numbers are shown there is no way of verifying.

Here a JF17 that shotdown f35 that we never knew about.

(was able to do it in less than 10min)

 

I am having trouble finding good translation of the award ceremony video, but it seems they are F-16 pilots, I would appreciate if anyone can find a good translation or summary of who the pilots are and that they do fly F-16.

 

Here is a word to word translation of the pilots speech. If you want I can translate DCAS (operations) speech too from this ceremony where he gave footage of the missles from ground attack.

Noman ali khan: shot down mig

Hassan mehmood Siddique: su30

Host: Noman we would like to ask you, the whole nation wants to know. On 27th feb when you were in the cockpit and you saw enemy planes on your radar, after that what was on your mind.

Noman: With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful.

How the enemy in the cover of dark cowardly attacked, and how they missed their targets and ran in haste and their formations fell apart and how the next day they were not able to defend their airspace, This questions enemy’s air force capability, and will remain a question until the end of times.

What was their planning on 26feb, and what we did on 27th feb, there was a big difference. They came in the cover of dark, missed their targets, and ran in haste.

As a response what we did was, we went, and we destroyed out intended targets. And then we stood there to challenge their Air Defences, See we are here come and see what is Pakistan air force.

Alhamdulillah (thank god) we told them what pakistani nation and Pakistan air force is.

Believe me at that time how my formation was with me reminded me of one of the Iqbal’s poem: “To swoop, withdraw and swoop again Is only a pretext to keep up the heat of the blood” my formation was acting just like it, swooping. Withdrawing and swooping again.

But the rules were restricting us when to shoot them down. As soon as one of there formation crossed the LOC (line of control), believe me there wasn’t a blink of an eye delay in that aircraft crossing and me firing my missle.

Host: Glory be to God. We pray that your formations keep swooping. Withdrawing and swooping. Hassan I would like to know that this formation was led by noman and you were a part of it. The nation wants to know when you engaged the enemy what was your feelings as a young energetic pilot.

Hassan: While answering this question of yours I can recall M.M Alam’s Interview on a similar question he said, All feelings are left behind when we enter the warzone. I was the same. All that was in my mind, was My Enemy, My Country’s Integrity, and my nation’s dignity. So whenever any enemy looks with evil eye towards My Country’s Integrity, and my nation’s dignity will face the same consequences as those two fighters. If ever again someone looks with an evil eye, the extend of damage we will do will be unmeasurable.

Host: Look closely these are the type of fighters we have.

Noman: When we talk about air force and modern air force employment, You can’t leave it on chance, you cant just hope in a plane and attack your enemy. It needs a great deal of planning. The enemy’s basic mistake was: He had no Idea of its weaknesses nor did he knew about our strengths. They made a basic mistake and challenged the wrong nation. Believe me Pakistan air force was pride of the nation, it today is and will always remain.

After that the host asks hassan for a message for youngsters of Pakistan.