The F-35 Thread

https://youtu.be/0sHhrCfJ078

Not totally related but it kinda shows that F-35 stealth is very good

Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia

NEW DELHI – The ambitious $10 billion Indo-Russian program for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, faces a new serious hurdle, as the Indian Air Force demands a discontinuation of the project.

 

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

 

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

 

FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.

 

Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.

 

Russian Embassy diplomats here were unavailable for comments.

 

Vaijinder K Thakur, retired IAF squadron leader and defense analyst disagreement with the Air Force assessment of capability, saying that the current Russian FGFA prototype, known as Su-57, features the AL-41F1 engine. But the production variant of FGFA would be fitted with the Product 30 engine which is 30 percent lighter, features improved thrust, and has better fuel efficiency and fewer moving parts. That results in improved reliability and 30 percent lower life-cycle cost, Thakur said.

 

Without having operated U.S. fighters, the IAF is hardly in a position to pronounce judgment on the comparative long-term operating costs of Russian and U.S. fighters, Thakur added.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/10/20/indian-air-force-wants-out-of-fighter-program-with-russia/

Not totally related but it kinda shows that F-35 stealth is very good

Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/10/20/indian-air-force-wants-out-of-fighter-program-with-russia/

It does not show anything related to perf. of both planes ... if anything, it shows the money talking. Lockheed is known for bribery scandals (ie f104g fiasco) and they need more F35 customers.

It does not show anything related to perf. of both planes

It does talk about rcs requirements

if anything, it shows the money talking. Lockheed is known for bribery scandals (ie f104g fiasco) and they need more F35 customers.

It would be quite naive to think LM is the only one that can bribe and AFAIK Lockheed Martin has the biggest list of customers for their 5gens

what it shows me is india is seriously feeling burnt by their mig-29k experience

That, or they're not willing to wait another decade for the engines.

Whats the problem with the Mig-29K?

Whats the problem with the Mig-29K?

Probably does not perform very well against the western competition, and I'm specifically thinking electronics wise.

Well, the Mig-29K is not designed to be the F-35 counterpart so...

Probably does not perform very well against the western competition, and I'm specifically thinking electronics wise.

What makes you think that - and what "electronics" are you referring to?

I think probad was referring to the alleged level of downtime due to engine reliability with the initial batch of aircraft delivered to the IN.

I say "alleged" because I have long since learned to take articles/reports by certain circles in India with a grain of salt. Its no secret that the Indian military has had two "schools of thought" for decades and that one of them really doesn't like the idea of adopting Russian(and previously Soviet) military hardware and that self-appointed "experts" and "analysts" have gone to great lengths to campaign against it - often with "doctored" facts and dubious argumentation.

I am not saying that there aren't any problems with the MiG-29K/KUBs(some teething problems were to be expected) , but I fully expected the above mentioned parties to stand ready and blow them out of proportions at the first given opportunity.

But then the subject of this thread has had its share of that too ;) .

What makes you think that - and what "electronics" are you referring to?

Avionics, ECM, radar, weapons, engines...

It's no secret that Russia is lagging behind by a fair amount in that department.

@red coreSix.

I wouldn't be so sure of that!

Avionics, ECM, radar, weapons, engines...

It's no secret that Russia is lagging behind by a fair amount in that department.

Isn't it? - considering that much concerning these items is exactly secret, I wonder how you can make that call. The radar at least is a pretty sophisticated and capable set and I have heard no complaints about the weapons or general combat capabilities of the MiG-29K.

Besides, in the IN version of the MiG-29K, several items of its avionics and the ECM are not even Russian:

- INS/GPS navigation system (Sagem Sigma-95)

- radio navigation system(Thales/India)

- Radio altimeter (India)

- UHF radio (India)

- helmet mounted targeting system(Thales TopSight E)

- RWR (Tarang - India)

- ECM pod (Elta EL/L-822 - Israel)

Anyway, this is getting way off-topic.

Isn't it? - considering that much concerning these items is exactly secret, I wonder how you can make that call. The radar at least is a pretty sophisticated and capable set and I have heard no complaints about the weapons or general combat capabilities of the MiG-29K.

I'm making that call based on Russia's almost inexistent experience with AESAs and the fact that they're just now getting their operational R-77s, likely in very low numbers. I think it's pretty clear that their technology isn't bad, it's just at least 10 years behind the west.

Again guessing.

You know the first PESA radar on a fighter was installed in a Mig-31 36 years ago?

Russia is developing AESA radars since almost 20 years.

The most modern Zhuk-AE is going to be the Mig-35 AESA radar.

The N036 Byelka AESA is also developed for the Su-57.

Understimate the capabilities of russian technology in not a good idea.

And for the price of a F-35 you can buy almost 8 Mig-29K , 3 Su-35S or 2 Su-57. Something to consider.

Again guessing.

 

You know the first PESA radar on a fighter was installed in a Mig-31 36 years ago?

 

Russia is developing AESA radars since almost 20 years.

 

The most modern Zhuk-AE is going to be the Mig-35 AESA radar.

 

The N036 Byelka AESA is also developed for the Su-57.

 

Understimate the capabilities of russian technology in not a good idea.

 

And for the price of a F-35 you can buy almost 8 Mig-29K , 3 Su-35S or 2 Su-57. Something to consider.

Show me some exemplary fighter-AESA radars that Russia has ever operationally fielded. Easy to build low frequency AESAs, harder to make them X-Band and fit them into fighters. Not really guessing if they're just now starting to get into it. That's not even mentioning that they have trouble getting enough GaAs/GaN substrates to make meaningful numbers of these radars. The US had their first operational AESAs on the F-22 about 10 years ago. Are you saying Russia will make the same progress the west has made over the last decade instantly? :)

No.

Everything takes time and they are investing time and money on that.

The N-036 is a X-Band AESA radar.

Anyway, this is getting way off-topic.

No, it's been off-topic, but you lovers of Russian hardware can't leave the bait alone. And apparently supporters of the F-35 can't help but post unsupported garbage. This thread is only saved when someone posts a news article or photo, it's just page after page of sh*tposting. :doh:

No.

 

Everything takes time and they are investing time and money on that.

 

The N-036 is a X-Band AESA radar.

And that's okay, but you can't argue that they're comparable to current western AESAs, because they're not.

And the N-036 is still in testing, so it only proves my point.

I´ve never said they are comparable.

It does not show anything related to perf. of both planes ... if anything, it shows the money talking. Lockheed is known for bribery scandals (ie f104g fiasco) and they need more F35 customers.

It's literally right there..

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

Every country in a fighter deal always threatens to change to the other manufacturer (most F-35 countries threatened to choose the competition too). Well see how it pans out but we shouldn't judge right now. It's too early.

Again guessing.

And for the price of a F-35 you can buy almost 8 Mig-29K , 3 Su-35S or 2 Su-57. Something to consider.

Those would be extremely low end MiG-29K's and Su-35's if your numbers are actually equal to the F-35A's cost, though I digress.

It is something to consider for those lower end country's, or country's who cannot support/not allowed 5th generation aircraft yet. Keep in mind the more aircraft you have, the more your logistics keep on piling onto you...

Once again like always, this turns into Quality vs Quantity.

Maybe some of you should start another pointless east vs. west discussion thread instead of spamming this very informative one...

:poster_offtopic:

Pilot training, logistics and assets like proper AWACS, tankers, electronic warfare jets etc. are also huge factors judging the capability of a fighter aircraft.

Russian MiGs has always relied on good GCI. And they will have some fangs in close dogfights.

But they are way behind when it comes to sensor, weapons and avionics.

Just to compare. F22 vs F-15C training, no problem going up in a 2 vs 8 fight. F-35 is also up into F-22 terrtory with datalink, stealth and cutting edge sensors.

I would be amazed if the MiG29K would even come close to the old Eagle in a 2 vs 2 scenario.

Im a big fan of russian/soviet aircrafts but there is no way that they are on the same level tech-wise.