Pilot's feeling about the real F-5E parallel mine about the virtual one

I really enjoy flying the F-5E in DCS World. This is a really cool article by a former F-14 and F-5 pilot whose views on the real F-5 parallel how I feel about ED's F-5. It is a simple, fun airplane to fly, and very capable despite its technology and aerodynamic limitations compared to more modern fighters.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/former-vfc-13-adversary-pilot-explains-how-you-can-fly-and-fight-in-the-iconic-f-5-tiger-ii/?fbclid=IwAR2wH1JMsU4EzlRDc_9hj8IXkDQuWrUe_kYn6QUnK70Q92-lDRACGlTK-Sw

F-5E is one of the aircrafts that I think is causing disturbance in force about its performance. Some say it is not so capable, and some say it is capable.

And it seems to be more like "Did you fly against it, or did you fly in it?" kind question, where a pilot is the one that makes the difference.

I again find in this article that it is stated that how F-5 has almost identical flight maneuvering characteristics with MiG-21Bis, but I couldn't match those two at all since original FM in MiG. Now there is discussions that week or two ago released patch changed MiG-21Bis flight modeling radically for more stable and I haven't tested it. I want so much to get on testing it (as time allows) as then those two should maneuver very closely to each others.

IMHO the F-5 true limitation in DCS is just its lack of flares and chaff, as you so often fly against anything that can target or shoot at you with weapons that has those. But what can you do.... Than laugh. :D

F-5E is one of the aircrafts that I think is causing disturbance in force about its performance. Some say it is not so capable, and some say it is capable.

 

And it seems to be more like "Did you fly against it, or did you fly in it?" kind question, where a pilot is the one that makes the difference.

 

I again find in this article that it is stated that how F-5 has almost identical flight maneuvering characteristics with MiG-21Bis, but I couldn't match those two at all since original FM in MiG. Now there is discussions that week or two ago released patch changed MiG-21Bis flight modeling radically for more stable and I haven't tested it. I want so much to get on testing it (as time allows) as then those two should maneuver very closely to each others.

 

IMHO the F-5 true limitation in DCS is just its lack of flares and chaff, as you so often fly against anything that can target or shoot at you with weapons that has those. But what can you do.... Than laugh. :D

The reality is that both the F-5 and MiG-21 flight models are currently borked. I don't own the -21, but allegedly it's impossible to stall it now, which is laughably unrealistic for that jet. Meanwhile, the F-5 has issues with commanded versus actual thrust, as well as ground speed vs indicated airspeed being used to determine lift and engine performance.

The reality is that both the F-5 and MiG-21 flight models are currently borked. I don't own the -21, but allegedly it's impossible to stall it now, which is laughably unrealistic for that jet

And there are conflicting data about that, and should it be possible even.

The reality is that both the F-5 and MiG-21 flight models are currently borked. I don't own the -21, but allegedly it's impossible to stall it now, which is laughably unrealistic for that jet. Meanwhile, the F-5 has issues with commanded versus actual thrust, as well as ground speed vs indicated airspeed being used to determine lift and engine performance.

Wow, a new flight model for the MiG-21 that makes it even more maneuverable?

Seems over the top to me.

I haven’t updated yet and am now scared too. No more UFO MiG-21 please.

Here try this. Pit an AI MiG-21 average skill against an AI F-16, average skill.

Watch as the MiG-21 not only keeps up with the F-16 in hard turning, but outlasts it. The fight ends with the F-16 ditching because it runs out of fuel.

In what universe is this possible?

The MiG-21 is aerodynamically clean for going straight and level only. In turns it only had a good instantaneous turn. After the instantaneous turn, it should be dead slow like a floating rock, unless it keeps straight and level again to slowly rebuild speed. It can’t maintain the speed in a turn, it is just aerodynamically impossible.

It has no fore body strakes, LERX, blended wing body, relaxed static stability, FBW, reclined seat, shaped inlet for smooth AOA airflow, and lifting body fuselage that the F-16 has.

So how can it turn with it? Because of the MiG-21’s emergency afterburner and it’s blown flaps? The blown flaps actually draw power away from the thrust, and it’s only good in landings, when you expect to start dropping to the earth.

The MiG-21 has a turbojet engine while the F-16 has a turbofan. So how is the the MiG able to outlast the F-16? Also the F-16 can carry more fuel in its blended wing.

Don’t mean to rant, but I had posted on DCS MiG-21 support page about UFO FM and never got a response.

There are accounts from Soviet test pilots who were shocked to find in tests with a captured F-5E that it was not only able to beat the MiG-21Bis in 1 minute, but early an MiG-23 in 5 minutes as well.

Just seems DCS is more unrealistically favourable to the MiG-21 than the F-5 or even F-16 for that matter.

Wow, a new flight model for the MiG-21 that makes it even more maneuverable?

 

Seems over the top to me.

 

I haven’t updated yet and am now scared too. No more UFO MiG-21 please.

 

 

 

Here try this. Pit an AI MiG-21 average skill against an AI F-16, average skill.

 

Watch as the MiG-21 not only keeps up with the F-16 in hard turning, but outlasts it. The fight ends with the F-16 ditching because it runs out of fuel.

 

In what universe is this possible?

 

 

 

The MiG-21 is aerodynamically clean for going straight and level only. In turns it only had a good instantaneous turn. After the instantaneous turn, it should be dead slow like a floating rock, unless it keeps straight and level again to slowly rebuild speed. It can’t maintain the speed in a turn, it is just aerodynamically impossible.

 

 

 

It has no fore body strakes, LERX, blended wing body, relaxed static stability, FBW, reclined seat, shaped inlet for smooth AOA airflow, and lifting body fuselage that the F-16 has.

 

So how can it turn with it? Because of the MiG-21’s emergency afterburner and it’s blown flaps? The blown flaps actually draw power away from the thrust, and it’s only good in landings, when you expect to start dropping to the earth.

 

The MiG-21 has a turbojet engine while the F-16 has a turbofan. So how is the the MiG able to outlast the F-16? Also the F-16 can carry more fuel in its blended wing.

 

 

 

Don’t mean to rant, but I had posted on DCS MiG-21 support page about UFO FM and never got a response.

 

 

 

There are accounts from Soviet test pilots who were shocked to find in tests with a captured F-5E that it was not only able to beat the MiG-21Bis in 1 minute, but early an MiG-23 in 5 minutes as well.

 

Just seems DCS is more unrealistically favourable to the MiG-21 than the F-5 or even F-16 for that matter.

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AI and player FM may be different. I suspect because the AI takes liberties with speed retention and acceleration. This may possibility be because most flight manuals I see don’t mention stats like those for a car like 0 to 60, or other drag or acceleration related measures.

I suspect the AI FM is based on the player FM but with these liberties in drag and acceleration.

But so what if it is only AI? I don’t play online, and only with AI so it is a concern for me.

And it stI’ll doesn’t explain the disparity between the MiG-21 and the F-5 / F-16.

AI and player FM may be different. I suspect because the AI takes liberties with speed retention and acceleration. This may possibility be because most flight manuals I see don’t mention stats like those for a car like 0 to 60, or other drag or acceleration related measures.

I suspect the AI FM is based on the player FM but with these liberties in drag and acceleration.

 

But so what if it is only AI? I don’t play online, and only with AI so it is a concern for me.

And it stI’ll doesn’t explain the disparity between the MiG-21 and the F-5 / F-16.

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I completely agree with you. However, I think some planes are more culprits than others.

I completely agree with you. However, I think some planes are more culprits than others.

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Aren’t the old FMs the original planes like F-15, Su-25, etc.? Doesn’t MiG-21 have professional FM?

What ever the case, why did it get upgraded with no stall limit, only to have this fixed again?

Seems like there is some perceived need to ensure parity between the F-5E and MiG-21, maybe for the sake of some multiplier matchups, when all the science points to the MiG-21 being less endowed with high lift devices than the F-5 or F-16.

No AI aircraft uses a professional fm as you call it. The flightmodel of all AI controlled planes are completely different to a player controlled one. Not only in flight simulations also in most other simulations. Because your pc is not capable of handling a lot of aircraft which would use the same flightmodel as u do. But honestly as long as there are enough factors at play which let you think they are using the same, its good enough. And yeah i know the ai can pull impossible maneuvers but that's maybe because ed is still implementing new factors into the ai model itself.

I for myself prefer an ai which is almost impossible to beat, over an ai which is so stupid that itself is its worst enemy.

No AI aircraft uses a professional fm as you call it. The flightmodel of all AI controlled planes are completely different to a player controlled one. Not only in flight simulations also in most other simulations. Because your pc is not capable of handling a lot of aircraft which would use the same flightmodel as u do. But honestly as long as there are enough factors at play which let you think they are using the same, its good enough. And yeah i know the ai can pull impossible maneuvers but that's maybe because ed is still implementing new factors into the ai model itself.

 

I for myself prefer an ai which is almost impossible to beat, over an ai which is so stupid that itself is its worst enemy.

Thanks for these details and your feedback.

Having played around with the IL-2 1946 FMs, I don’t believe all sims separate the AI FM vs the User FM as you say.

The AI has scripts to replicate the user decisioning. But in IL-2, both AI and user FMs are based the same parameters like lift and drag coefficients. Are you saying in DCS, a plane can have different coefficients between AI and user FMs? If so, why? That would not be DCS but arcade.

I am the opposite. I do not enjoy wasting 20 minutes in an endless cycle of vertical loops that is the case with the top skill level of the current AI in DCS. That is a waste of time playing against UFOs, doing the same maneuvers, only to run out of gas. Fun times.

Instead I only play against Average AI skill level now, as I found The current 2.5 average is equivalent to the earlier 1.5.x expert skill level, which did seem more realistic. If it is too stupid, I just add more enemies. Better than wasting time.

I would like to apologize to the OP, don’t mean to take the subject off topic. The article is awesome.

I did read some comments on the Mig-21 turning performances and I couldn't agree with those for several reasons:

First, it all depends which variant of the Mig we're talking about, a M would out-turn an F-4D in sustained turn rate and perform a 360* one second faster, a Mig-21 Bis wouldn't.

Then, It greatly depends on the pilot, my main instructor, head of the Bretigny Flight Test Center (AdlA) at the time, flew a Russian Mig-21 when the sister Squadron Niemen visited Reims in 1973.

He was favorably impressed, stating that it had similar performances to that of a Mirage III and the only real disadvantage was the ballistic of the GSh-23 compared to the DEFA 30mm, not to mention the gunsight limited at a low number of g.

The USAF/USN/Marine pilots respected the Mig-21 as a worthy adversary a match to the F-4 at least...

file:///D:/Compared-Air-Combat-Performances-Mig-21-vs-F-4-Opus-1.pdf

I did read some comments on the Mig-21 turning performances and I couldn't agree with those for several reasons:

 

First, it all depends which variant of the Mig we're talking about, a M would out-turn an F-4D in sustained turn rate and perform a 360* one second faster, a Mig-21 Bis wouldn't.

 

Then, It greatly depends on the pilot, my main instructor, head of the Bretigny Flight Test Center (AdlA) at the time, flew a Russian Mig-21 when the sister Squadron Niemen visited Reims in 1973.

 

He was favorably impressed, stating that it had similar performances to that of a Mirage III and the only real disadvantage was the ballistic of the GSh-23 compared to the DEFA 30mm, not to mention the gunsight limited at a low number of g.

 

The USAF/USN/Marine pilots respected the Mig-21 as a worthy adversary a match to the F-4 at least...

 

file:///D:/Compared-Air-Combat-Performances-Mig-21-vs-F-4-Opus-1.pdf

I think you are right Thinder. When people compare between F-5 to MiG-21, they are often referring to the MiG-21F model, as I understand it. That was the lightest version. All versions had the same wing and wing shape, with the exception of the Chinese versions. Yet all later versions go progressively heavier. So the wing loading goes up. And they didn’t add any new high lift devices except the blown flaps. But that is more to help planes with bad wing loading to land, like the F-104 as well.

MiG-21 was a sports car in the Vietnam war compared to the F-4 and F-8. But the two most maneuverable fighters in that theatre would have to be the F-5 and the Mig-17. I have no confidence a MiG-21 bid could defeat an F-5, or any 4 gen fighter.