Awesome A10 HUD and JTAC video

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Yurgon:

I'm not familiar with JFOs. Would it be roughly correct to describe it as "JTAC light" when a JFO controls an aircraft in Close Air Support?

Joint Fires Observer - Army personnel trained to call in fire support, either by artillery or CAS.

I don't no the details for the Air Force, but USMC JTACs need to be pilots that are then embedded with ground troops as JTAC. So they know both perspective, the pilots and the grunts.

https://www.army.mil/article/88014/joint_fires_observers_make_battlefield_impact

1 minute ago, Yurgon said:

I can't think of a way for the JTAC to tell the pilot an attack direction without this being a mandatory restriction. Do you have an example?

I'm thinking along the lines of "Remarks: Final Attack Heading between 320 and 360" or "Remarks: Make your run-ins north to south or south to north" - if the pilot can't fulfill these, he'd have to tell the JTAC about it. But the pilot couldn't just decide to make a west to east run although north to south was requested, as an example.

Of course, technically, it's still the JTAC who clears the attack, so if the pilot is on the wrong heading and the JTAC is fine with it, there could still be a "Cleared Hot".

But if I understand you correctly that a requested cardinal attack direction requires the word "restriction" to take effect, I'm not aware of such a requirement. When the JTAC wants run-ins to the north, he'll call "run-ins to the north" and the pilot has to do it. At least that's my understanding.

The good old inter-service rivalry at play? Yeah in that case, "it makes no sense" probably doesn't count.

(Maybe it does actually make sense, but I don't see how).

I mean the program was designed to help JTACs on the ground (there simply wasn't enough to go around) but yeah it's inter-service stuff that pretty much goes on. The JTACs I started with in my deployment liked me and I liked them too. But their replacements were a little sketch too there was that. Anyways as said it works out in the end and that's that.

12 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

I can't think of a way for the JTAC to tell the pilot an attack direction without this being a mandatory restriction. Do you have an example?

I'm thinking along the lines of "Remarks: Final Attack Heading between 320 and 360" or "Remarks: Make your run-ins north to south or south to north" - if the pilot can't fulfill these, he'd have to tell the JTAC about it. But the pilot couldn't just decide to make a west to east run although north to south was requested, as an example.

Of course, technically, it's still the JTAC who clears the attack, so if the pilot is on the wrong heading and the JTAC is fine with it, there could still be a "Cleared Hot".

Nope, you're right, I read incorrectly, JP3-09 just says using cardinal directions is "not recommended"

This 4+ year old post got continued from little ol' me!

3 hours ago, Yurgon said:

I'm not familiar with JFOs. Would it be roughly correct to describe it as "JTAC light" when a JFO controls an aircraft in Close Air Support?

[...]

So when you say you aren't usually allowed to do type 1 controls as a JFO, I don't understand the logic behind it. Type 1 seems like the safest and easiest way for a controller to ensure good effects on target with maximum safety for friendlies, because you can (and are required to) visually asses the geometry of each individual attack.

A JFO: "provides targeting information in support of CAS; and performs terminal
guidance operations (TGO). JFOs cannot perform terminal attack control of CAS missions
and do not replace a qualified JTAC/forward air controller (airborne) (FAC[A]).

A JFO is allowed to brief a CAS 9-line, but you still need the JTAC to say the words cleared hot and authorize weapons release. It makes sense what EricJ's saying because the JFO is used in a situation when a JTAC would not be able to see the target himself and relies on a JFO to provide the information to a fighter. The JFO isn't allowed to clear an aircraft hot, and if the JTAC could see both the fighter and a target there would be no need for a JFO. That does not mean that a JTAC is in any way restricted from doing type 1/2/3 controlls. From what I understand they want to be as little restrictive as possible, which usually leads to type 2 controls because type 3 has been too unrestrictive for the type of wars we've been fighting the last 2 decades. Based on the video this could have been either a type 1/2. The pause in giving the pilot clearance after he called in suggests to me that it might have been a type 1 because the JTAC delayed to analyze the fighters nose position. But it could have also been the JTAC being slow to respond because he was taking enemy fire. I'd call that unassessable.

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

using the cardinal directions is not specific enough and implies it's a request.  I suspect, though, that if he specifically says "restriction - south to north attack" then that would count.

It's not a request. Its also explicitly stated in the JPUB that giving a direction like "south to north" is still a restriction. It means 360 +-45 degrees. Any time a cardinal direction is passed its that direction +- 45 so its very specific, just a big window and "less restrictive" for the aircrew. Less restrictive means that it is just easier for the pilots and they don't have to try and hit a 10 degree heading or anything. It does not mean its not a restriction though. The only time it would be a recommendation is if the JTAC says something like "all final attack directions approved, recommend ____"

2 hours ago, Yurgon said:

The good old inter-service rivalry at play? Yeah in that case, "it makes no sense" probably doesn't count.

All services have JTACS. JTAC is a qualification, not a branch specific role. The majority of JTACS that conventional army guys work with are probably Air Force though because that's the deal between the services. But tons of special forces guys of all branches get JTAC qualified. Marines most the time will have their own JTACS. Its not that the JFO isnt' trusted or that there is a negative view of them, and has nothing to do with an inter service rivalry. Its just they are not trained to the same standard and haven't done the same training and don't have the qualifications. Thats a DOD wide regulation.

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Maybe the way to think of this is that while type 1 is inherently safer, you end up using it in hairier situations than type 2  

It's just about who's able to give the control. JFOs can't say cleared hot. For a type 1 the person saying cleared hot needs eyes on the target and fighter. if the the JTAC is there and meets both those criteria, the JFO isn't necessary.  The JFO is the method by which the JTAC has the requisit target information and situational awareness to clear a fighter hot. Even for a type 2 the pilot cannot drop or shoot without a cleared hot call. Even if the JFO passes the 9 line the pilot is still going to call IN and a JTAC would call cleared hot.

2 hours ago, ASAP said:

A JFO is allowed to brief a CAS 9-line, but you still need the JTAC to say the words cleared hot and authorize weapons release. [...]

That clears it up, thanks!

2 hours ago, ASAP said:

Its not that the JFO isnt' trusted or that there is a negative view of them, and has nothing to do with an inter service rivalry.

I was just going by what EricJ wrote about being allowed to do only type 2 controls (and on rare occasions type 1) - which I still don't fully understand. Anyway, my attempt at a joke probably didn't work that well.

On 1/27/2023 at 4:52 PM, bigcomputerman said:

This 4+ year old post got continued from little ol' me!

I'll take the blame