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do you like the Gaz or Huey


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Yes it is true :-)

But all the french military pilots begin in the same school in Dax (all the Armee de terre, armée de l'air, marine nationale and gendarmerie pilots).

And if you check google perhaps you will find that 14years ago, all the french student pilot like me learned to fly on SA341 Gazelle :-)

 

After one year and aproximatively 135/150hours of flight, we go to Le Luc En provence for the CPL/IR ME qualification on the As555 Fennec and the we return in our Armée to continue the operational learning.

 

I am now instructor on AS555 Fennec in Orange Airbase for the young pilots who are leaving Le Luc en provence.

 

Now in Dax there are no more Gazelle...

There are H120.

 

I don't understand why there is such mistrust in this forum or perhaps just on this post...

Perhaps jealousy... so sad to be like that instead of shearing our passion for military aircrafts...

No no, it's not jealousy. I explained you, a lot of people claim to be pilot of [insert aircraft here], and ends up to be a lie. And that's why it's not easy to believe anyone :P

Chinook lover - Rober -

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Nothing to do with Jealousy but as swatstar98 highlighted it, this FM question has been a heated topic that ended up with the dev almost deserting the thread as it was becoming really hostile. Hence the mistrust. I have been trough tons of posts from people claiming to fly choppers in real life, and even if it was true sometimes, the comparison of their experience with what the Gazelle can do was often just plain ridiculous (like, "I have 10 hours on R22 so I know for a fact that choppers can't do this or that").

The other thing I realized is that real experienced pilots are struggling big time with what can and can't be done in today's computer. So they are either too complaisant with a software or just too demanding for things that just can't be simulated yet. Finally, the gazelle and many/all DCS modules can truly be appreciated with proper/expensive controls. So if you are flying the gazelle with a gamepad (I hope not) or even a simple joystick, this might alter your point of view.

Now I am not saying that the gazelle is flawless, I never flew a Gazelle either and I am one of those guys with barely 50 hours of stick time on a R22. Needless to day my opinion doesn't count that much about how good the FM is.

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Nothing to do with Jealousy but as swatstar98 highlighted it, this FM question has been a heated topic that ended up with the dev almost deserting the thread as it was becoming really hostile. Hence the mistrust. I have been trough tons of posts from people claiming to fly choppers in real life, and even if it was true sometimes, the comparison of their experience with what the Gazelle can do was often just plain ridiculous (like, "I have 10 hours on R22 so I know for a fact that choppers can't do this or that").

The other thing I realized is that real experienced pilots are struggling big time with what can and can't be done in today's computer. So they are either too complaisant with a software or just too demanding for things that just can't be simulated yet. Finally, the gazelle and many/all DCS modules can truly be appreciated with proper/expensive controls. So if you are flying the gazelle with a gamepad (I hope not) or even a simple joystick, this might alter your point of view.

Now I am not saying that the gazelle is flawless, I never flew a Gazelle either and I am one of those guys with barely 50 hours of stick time on a R22. Needless to day my opinion doesn't count that much about how good the FM is.

+1

Chinook lover - Rober -

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I have never flown anything in my life, although I would love to. I prefer the Huey over the Gazelle because it is more enjoyable to fly. I've never been one to hotrod helicopters around, that's what jet fighters are for, I've always enjoyed the the challenge of flying things like warbirds and helicopters well. The Gazelle is very easy to fly provided you fly steady with a light hand, the Huey however is very tough to master, not only the flying of the helicopter as just flying it, but the mission sets are tough, sling loading for example is difficult and even after flying for 3 years I still am never perfect with the a load under me.

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SA341 Gazelle :-)

 

The model in DCS is the SA342 that have a very different SAS/Autopilot, even different blades. That must be why it feels different for you.

 

SA342 ALAT pilots have tested and helped improve the FM on the Gazelle so I'm sure the FM is pretty good :).

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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And? What is the purpose of lying?

 

I am only sharing my experience to explain that the FM is not real and very far from the real Gazelle.

 

 

Not a lot of trusting folks, I Guess. Have ever tried it with VR by any chance? I only ask because as someone who's never flown, flying in VR was infinitely easier (more real). I flew in choppers, but as an 11B, I naturally didn't fly one :D

 

 

I was curious if you've tried VR.

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The model in DCS is the SA342 that have a very different SAS/Autopilot, even different blades. That must be why it feels different for you.

 

SA342 ALAT pilots have tested and helped improve the FM on the Gazelle so I'm sure the FM is pretty good :).

 

The blades are the same as the As555 on which I have now more than 2800hours of flight. So

I know the behaviour...

Sas/autopilot is absolutely not the problem.

 

I have a lot of friends in ALAT (we learned To fly together and we are playing DCS together since Blackshark 1), and no one like the FM of the gazelle, they all fly the Mi8.

 

Try to fly at approximatively 100kts with the gazelle in DCS and reduce the throttle and check the behaviour of the gazelle. The Left rolling is a big mistake and very binary coded in DCS.

 

Try to take quickly a 30 degrees climb at high speed: big mistake in the behaviour too.

Its still like a rc model. The gazelle has been coded like it was 1000kg lighter than the real one.

 

Continue to enjoy flying it in DCS. I am happy for you

For me it's impossible because there are too many mistakes and no need to be a helicopter pilot to see that.

 

For the VR, in order to answer to the last post, yes I've tried in DCS and it is very realistic.

With the Mi8 when I fly it in VR, I have the same feelings like IRL.

The landings between trees/buildings are very cool in VR. Close formation flying in VR is also very realistic and in my squadron we are learning it to the young pilots (day and night with NVG) and I was thinking of trying to use DCS in VR to replace our very bad simulator which is a real cockpit but with a 180degrees screen....so we have no distance perception.

 

I also tried to land on ships in VR and this exercice is also very nice and very realistic in dcs (with the Mi8). It could also be an appication in my squadron because we often land on ships IRL but young pilots only discover it later in there carreer.

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I have a lot of friends in ALAT (we learned To fly together and we are playing DCS together since Blackshark 1), and no one like the FM of the gazelle, they all fly the Mi8.

 

If you say so.

 

How come ALATs pilots tested it and said it was good then ?

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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@Damcopter.

 

I have found that the input controls has a significant affect on how the Gazelle "Feels" in DCS. I especially find the cyclic input to be critical for the Gazelle.

 

Question is does the amount of cyclic in this basic maneuver seem about right for the Gazelle?

 

Keen to know if it's close, or not.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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@Damcopter.

 

I have found that the input controls has a significant affect on how the Gazelle "Feels" in DCS. I especially find the cyclic input to be critical for the Gazelle.

 

Question is does the amount of cyclic in this basic maneuver seem about right for the Gazelle?

 

Keen to know if it's close, or not.

Hello Frag,

 

You have to put some expo (30%) and saturation Y at 70 maximum. But I have tried a lot of settings and I don't find one which is good at all speeds.

 

 

And just to add something. A friend of mine was test pilot in Eurocopter (now Airbus helicopters). He is the one who developped the Tiger. He flown the gazelle 2500hours and told me the gazelle in DCS was bad FM (I play DCS with his son). I have waited for the helicopter bundle one month ago to buy the Mi8 and to finally test the gazelle.

He told me that I would be disapointed....And he was right.

 

This is a never ending post.

 

The FM is bad for those who want something realistic and good for those who want fun.

 

 

Envoyé de mon SM-A320FL en utilisant Tapatalk

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The gaz FM is not on par with the rest, we kinda all know it. Too much on rails . Unfortunately, months of hyperbolic whines and out of scope FM issue pointing (who cares about behavior in reverse? I care about normal behavior flight envelop first, and this light/on rail reactions) just killed any discussion on these boards , hence the reactions to your post. It was a crusade to show how superior the Huey FM was (all the while, the Huey still had zero engine torque limitations which allowed him to have completely unrealistic normal flight envelop behavior, but who cared?). We kinda fear these days to be back (well, I do :) ), and I've come to peace with the gaz FM. She has other things to enjoy, other DCS rotaries do not.

I suspect Poly have kind of a limited access to FM tweaking compared to ED. Strange that no other studio is taking on chopper models...

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Hello Frag,

 

Hi Damcopter, I'm keen to know as I am building up a VR Sim Pit for Helo 's so far it seems to work for Mi-8 and Huey as well as Ka-50 and Gazelle. Of course the Gazelle is light kinda like an R44 and a bit and with more lift?. :D

 

 

You have to put some expo (30%) and saturation Y at 70 maximum. But I have tried a lot of settings and I don't find one which is good at all speeds.

 

For me maybe some saturation but no Expo for X and Y (Cyclic) as the Gazelle has a very centric cyclic action perhaps some curvature and only for the Gazelle.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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To be honest Damcopter I haven't seen your case (cases) for the so flawed FM, other then a vague "it's bad".

 

Care to elaborate? :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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The gaz FM is not on par with the rest, we kinda all know it. Too much on rails . Unfortunately, months of hyperbolic whines and out of scope FM issue pointing (who cares about behavior in reverse? I care about normal behavior flight envelop first, and this light/on rail reactions) just killed any discussion on these boards , hence the reactions to your post. It was a crusade to show how superior the Huey FM was (all the while, the Huey still had zero engine torque limitations which allowed him to have completely unrealistic normal flight envelop behavior, but who cared?). We kinda fear these days to be back (well, I do :) ), and I've come to peace with the gaz FM. She has other things to enjoy, other DCS rotaries do not.

I suspect Poly have kind of a limited access to FM tweaking compared to ED. Strange that no other studio is taking on chopper models...

 

 

+1 :smilewink:

 

 

I agree with your analysis, especially for the Huey that I continue to consider very much overrated for FM, piloting it and keeping it stable is very difficult when instead this helicopter is known for its ease of handling ...

 

Personally I prefer the Gazelle, I flew a lot with the Lama and the Ecureuil and hear the hiss of the Astazou for me is already an added value ....

 

 

:thumbup:

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I think it's a bit disappointing that we might have a proper highly experienced Gazelle pilot contributing to the forum and there is so much energy going into discrediting or doubting his point of view, rather than seeing it as valuable feedback that has the potential to benefit us all.

Surely we can be a bit more respectful and listen to what Damcopter has to say?

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I think it's a bit disappointing that we might have a proper highly experienced Gazelle pilot contributing to the forum and there is so much energy going into discrediting or doubting his point of view, rather than seeing it as valuable feedback that has the potential to benefit us all.

Surely we can be a bit more respectful and listen to what Damcopter has to say?

We are not disrespectful. We just prefere to have evidences before believing anyone on this forums because this topic is full of "I am a ---- pilot", but they have never been inside a helicopter. And If he want really to improve the experience he can talk directly with the PC team in their discord. And also we can listen if he says smthng more than "it's bad". With that info the devs can do nothing, neither us.

 

Cheers.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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We are not disrespectful. We just prefere to have evidences before believing anyone on this forums because this topic is full of "I am a ---- pilot", but they have never been inside a helicopter. And If he want really to improve the experience he can talk directly with the PC team in their discord. And also we can listen if he says smthng more than "it's bad". With that info the devs can do nothing, neither us.

 

Cheers.

 

 

+1 ...this.

 

 

Spending your energy to criticize someone else's work does not lead to any results, it would be better if you spend them to improve it by collaborating with those who did it ...

 

 

:thumbup:

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@Damcopter : Just drop me a personal message and we can discuss certain aspects. We can also share our real names that way and if it is ok for you I would forward the information to the commander of Le Luc, who invited us already to see the base and the flightschool for a day or 2. I am open to any professional discussion and would send the information gatherred in a private discussion forward to a buddy of mine who flys the Gazelle for the french special forces.

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To be honest Damcopter I haven't seen your case (cases) for the so flawed FM, other then a vague "it's bad".

 

Care to elaborate? :D

 

I don't elaborate because english language is a mountain in front of for me to explain something so specific to non pilot guys.

 

@borchi: glad to speak with you. I will send you a message and I think the best way to explain my complaint about the FM would be to fly together on DCS one evening and to speak on Discord during this explanation flight.

 

I've just made a last test flight with the gazelle in order to prepare our flight together with points to discuss (now I have to begin the translation into english... google is my friend).

 

There are 4 points to discuss:

 

1: behaviour of the frame under the rotor

2: correspondence between the cyclic position and the attitude of the helicoptere

3: attitude during big movement of the collective lever (roll and pitch)

4: lack of inertia. Apparent weight especially at maximum TakeOff weight...

 

I am really happy if we could work together in order to improve this beautiful chopper. All the DCS community will be able to access these impovements.


Edited by Damcopter
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Great post, this forum really needs a like button.

I really like the Gazelle, but I can't help feeling that aspects of its flight model aren't quite as believable as the Huey, especially that sense of weight when you first get it up in the air. Trouble is I don't have enough experience in the real world to make this any more than a gut feeling, so I keep quiet and observe. Feedback like this from Damcopter hits the nail on the head for me.

If this last little bit could be sorted, it would make the Gazelle for me the best of the helicopters in DCS, and it seems that Borchi & co have a really healthy and positive approach to improving it and making it the best they can.

I love the Gazelle module and really appreciate the effort that the team are putting in. It's impressive to see the devs remaining open minded and constantly looking for ways to make it even better.

Once the Gazelle is up in the air it feels like a masterpiece to me the way tiny flicks of the collective make it obey your thoughts. Feels agile and is a joy to fly.

In response to the OP, I think DCS allows such good helicopter simulation, I can't imagine not having every one they make.

 

 

TL,DR - buy them all.

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I don't elaborate because english language is a mountain in front of for me to explain something so specific to non pilot guys.

 

@borchi: glad to speak with you. I will send you a message and I think the best way to explain my complaint about the FM would be to fly together on DCS one evening and to speak on Discord during this explanation flight.

 

I've just made a last test flight with the gazelle in order to prepare our flight together with points to discuss (now I have to begin the translation into english... google is my friend).

 

There are 4 points to discuss:

 

1: behaviour of the frame under the rotor

2: correspondence between the cyclic position and the attitude of the helicoptere

3: attitude during big movement of the collective lever (roll and pitch)

4: lack of inertia. Apparent weight especially at maximum TakeOff weight...

 

I am really happy if we could work together in order to improve this beautiful chopper. All the DCS community will be able to access these impovements.

 

Thank you for responding, we do get skeptical when people make general arguments about the Gazelle. From experience most (not all) that complain about the Gazelle FM are just from ignorance or poor equipment setup and not from real world experience.

 

Also understand the language issue. :thumbup:

 

Cheers Frag.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I don't elaborate because english language is a mountain in front of for me to explain something so specific to non pilot guys.

 

@borchi: glad to speak with you. I will send you a message and I think the best way to explain my complaint about the FM would be to fly together on DCS one evening and to speak on Discord during this explanation flight.

 

I've just made a last test flight with the gazelle in order to prepare our flight together with points to discuss (now I have to begin the translation into english... google is my friend).

 

There are 4 points to discuss:

 

1: behaviour of the frame under the rotor

2: correspondence between the cyclic position and the attitude of the helicoptere

3: attitude during big movement of the collective lever (roll and pitch)

4: lack of inertia. Apparent weight especially at maximum TakeOff weight...

 

I am really happy if we could work together in order to improve this beautiful chopper. All the DCS community will be able to access these impovements.

Great :thumbup:

 

I hope this will turn out for the best! Then I'll definitely buy the Gazelle.

i7 8700k@4.7, 1080ti, DDR4 32GB, 2x SSD , HD 2TB, W10, ASUS 27", TrackIr5, TMWH, X-56, GProR.

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