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Old 11-14-2017, 01:19 AM   #1
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Default Shkval targeting system slewing

One thing that I have always wondered, but never really found out.... Is that what kind input Skhval has for it in real life?

Meaning is it in KA-50 and SU-25T controlled with a 4-way or 8-way hat, or is it controlled with a mini-joystick?

I find it difficult to try to get a lock on moving target with a 4-way hat when the target moves diagonally instead just horizontally or vertically. This makes it very difficult to get lock on helicopter, ground vehicle or even less for an aircraft.

But then again I understand "moving target" mode then as it keeps Shkval gate moving general direction of the target once started and trying to get lock, but never really got it how it should work, as I thought that "moving target" targeting mode was more for tracking target for cannon/rocket etc firing solution, instead having anything to do Skhval gate control.

And then if your aircraft is slightly in roll angle, the horizontal control with 4-way hat moves the gate related to aircraft roll angle, instead ground angle (not ground stabilized even when you can get it locked on ground position).

If it is a mini-joystick, then I understand it is easy as you can move gate easily to any direction, but then again it feels "unrealistic".

So is the Skhval targeting hat a 4- or 8-way or mini-joystick in Su-25T or KA-50?
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:32 AM   #2
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IMHO it's a mini-joystick on the cyclic/stick with a vertical press switch for re-center

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Old 11-15-2017, 01:32 AM   #3
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Slew controller is proportional input, moving faster or slower based on how far the switch is displaced. I don't think there is any recentering button. So a limited 4 or 8-way hat switch will be more difficult to use than a 2-axis switch.

I'm sure the Su-25's Shkval is also a 2-axis joystick-type input.

Moving target directs the Vikhr (via the laser pattern) or cannon ahead based on the LOS rate of the Shkval track. The Shkval movement is the input and the laser or cannon aiming is the output. The optical tracker should work the same with or without the moving target engaged.
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Old 11-18-2017, 03:22 PM   #4
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I thought that the "Center the gate" wasn't really a real thing but would have required more likely a Shkval Reset or optical system On/Off like when auto-caging to stored target via ABRIS.

But good to know it should be a mini-stick to operate it. It has just felt little difficult always to get the speed right with a mini-stick as it doesn't seem to be limited by speed or at least not simulated that there would be maximum speed it can be moved with that mini-stick.

As I consider it fairly important critical feature to not stress about moving gate fast enough or slow enough depending targeting situation when you wear gloves and you are in high-stress situation, and then when you want to move aiming at long distances quickly you would use the HMS for that, and then when searching targets you would prefer to use the auto-scan feature (double-press uncage to start it) and its fastest rate would be the fastest rate you could anyways to move it (or maybe even that same speed knob would be used for the cyclic mini-stick speed?

This because without any limitations, one needs to always adjust the curves etc to get it behave well enough, otherwise it jumps from one end to another less than a half a second.
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Old 11-18-2017, 04:18 PM   #5
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After trying the BS2 shkval with both my 4-way hat and my ministick (I own a T16000M HOTAS), the 4-way gave me much better results. But that's because of the low quality of the mini-stick (would like to hear if there's any HOTAS with good quality mini-stick out there) and because ED programmed a very welcome acceleration for the 4-way hat that makes it move faster if you hold it long enough, but slow if you release it quickly. The low quality mini-stick can't even come close to that precision, even after much adjustments to sensitivity, deadzone, curve, etc.

Weirdly, the 8-way hat doesn't work very well, because the diagonals aren't accepted...
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Old 11-18-2017, 10:26 PM   #6
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As far as I know the "center Shkval" is a fictional function just like reset trim and respawn and toggle labels.

Personally I use a 4-way hat even though I have a ministick available. Being smooth even with Warthog cursor is difficult and I like it on the cyclic hand as it is in the real helicopter. I have set it to be controlled by the big joystick axes for testing and it is very smooth but of course is not practical.

Diagonal motion with hat switch depends on your controller. It will move diagonally if two buttons are pressed at the same time. If your diagonal hat ouputs two buttons when diagonally pressed it works fine. If your diagonal hat outputs a separate button then it won't.

There are two fixes for this: Use joystick programming software so diagonal press instead outputs the nieghboring vertical/lateral buttons at the same time.

Two, bind the 8 outputs (A B C D E F G H) to the 4 directions like this:
Up H A B
Right B C D
Down D E F
Left F G H
Of course this is impossible in the GUI but I think it can be done with text editing. The lines in DCS will have red highlights because it thinks multi-binding is a problem.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederf View Post
Diagonal motion with hat switch depends on your controller. It will move diagonally if two buttons are pressed at the same time. If your diagonal hat ouputs two buttons when diagonally pressed it works fine. If your diagonal hat outputs a separate button then it won't.

There are two fixes for this: Use joystick programming software so diagonal press instead outputs the nieghboring vertical/lateral buttons at the same time.

Two, bind the 8 outputs (A B C D E F G H) to the 4 directions like this:
Up H A B
Right B C D
Down D E F
Left F G H
Of course this is impossible in the GUI but I think it can be done with text editing. The lines in DCS will have red highlights because it thinks multi-binding is a problem.
Yes, what I do is use TARGET to generate the 'Thrustmaster Combined' and set the throttle's POV hat as the 'Trustmaster Combined' POV hat and set the stick's POV hat as 4 normal buttons. This way I can use the stick's POV hat as the shkval slew, because I also like to have it on the stick, like the real chopper.

The stick on the T16000M only has one hat and it's a 8-way hat... Would be nice if ED made the shkval work normally with 8-way hats, would save you from having to use profiling software...
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Old 11-19-2017, 05:02 PM   #8
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A while ago, I tried once to modify commands via text editing, but never succeeded to implement the SU25's IT251 TV Analog axis to the Ka50 Shkval system on the X52 Pro.
I even tried to reach a dev without success.
but IIRC, the anaolg axis on SU25 was in fact VERY hard to use, much more than the regular 4 axis Shkval.
But yes, soft diagonal targets are nearly impossible to lock due to this deceleration each time you change slewing direction.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceSells View Post
After trying the BS2 shkval with both my 4-way hat and my ministick (I own a T16000M HOTAS), the 4-way gave me much better results. But that's because of the low quality of the mini-stick (would like to hear if there's any HOTAS with good quality mini-stick out there) and because ED programmed a very welcome acceleration for the 4-way hat that makes it move faster if you hold it long enough, but slow if you release it quickly. The low quality mini-stick can't even come close to that precision, even after much adjustments to sensitivity, deadzone, curve, etc.

Weirdly, the 8-way hat doesn't work very well, because the diagonals aren't accepted...
That is as well something I found interesting, that acceleration feature. That was more as a symbol for either a unrealistic control for 4/8-way hats, or then reality where the real control is done with a 4/8-way hat (as there is as well a non-horizontal stabilization in the control but as aircraft attitude control (flying 15 degree bank to left means moving gate to left is 15 degree angle to left instead horizontal) and it makes it odd as you need to try to compensate all the time for your attitude the targeting, just like the radar would never be stabilized to horizon but would follow your aircraft angle (what would be nice time to time).
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:30 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=Frederf;3295792]As far as I know the "center Shkval" is a fictional function just like reset trim and respawn and toggle labels.[quote]

Well, "respawn" and "toggle labels" are now a purely game mechanics, while "reset trim" and "center Shkval" I can see as limitations for simulation or easiness for new comers.
Yet, it would be nice to have a label in them "not realistic" when hovering so people would know that they are stepping to another direction.

Quote:
Personally I use a 4-way hat even though I have a ministick available. Being smooth even with Warthog cursor is difficult and I like it on the cyclic hand as it is in the real helicopter. I have set it to be controlled by the big joystick axes for testing and it is very smooth but of course is not practical.
Bind it to the mouse and you can see how unrealistic it is. You can in no time to just point it anywhere and track anything without lock and be like a deadly sniper without any problems.

Quote:
Diagonal motion with hat switch depends on your controller. It will move diagonally if two buttons are pressed at the same time. If your diagonal hat ouputs two buttons when diagonally pressed it works fine. If your diagonal hat outputs a separate button then it won't..
Well, I think many of those are more unrealistic as one can consider the HOTAS systems in real things to be always been used with gloves at hands, in high G maneuvers, in high stress situations etc, where you can't be limited by the accidental wrong input.


Why I still consider that a mini-stick is little odd as it is unlimited by speed and you can easily just move target gate (or any radar scope cursor etc) without limitations. That is something I think should be simulated, if the Shkval targeting camera can't move X+ degree in specific axis in second, then it should be limited to what it can. It is after all same thing as radar sweep speed, radar track generation lag, aircraft control surface movement speeds or even gear motion speed.

Why I could see that why Skhval targeting system didn't get accepted in Su-25T as it was too difficult to use (non-horizontal stabilization) or too limited (two axis only instead ministick ie).
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