Ragtop's A-10C Build

Excuse my ignorance, for I'm about to pickle 2000lbs of dumb question!

 

What is the difference between matrix/non matrix wiring? Thanks!

With non-matrix you use one input for each button and wire the other end to ground. With a matrix you can use the same input for several buttons, by wiring the other end of the buttons to separate commons that take turn to be at ground potential. The controller takes each common to ground potential in turn, and if it senses that an input goes low it knows that a button is pressed between that input and the common-pin currently at ground potential. The drawback of this is that you need diodes, and it is only good for switches and other equipment that short two lines together. It is not good for reading a digital signal, but we seldom do that here :)

Excuse my ignorance, for I'm about to pickle 2000lbs of dumb question!

 

What is the difference between matrix/non matrix wiring? Thanks!

Here is a good intro into key matrix.

http://pcbheaven.com/wikipages/How_Key_Matrices_Works/

Basically it's a way to take a small number of I/O pins on a micro-controller and read a much larger number of inputs. Most I/O boards use them at a low level, but can either mask them by including the diodes on board, or other ICs which handle it for you.

You're Bodnar X boards do not expose a matrix to you at all. You only have to ground out the inputs and not worry about diodes or which ground. The other Bodnar boards do have matrix exposed to you as well as the PHCC key matrix daughter cards, X-Keys key matrix and Brydling's board.

Either way works, but make sure you understand how the matrix works and plan out your wiring accordingly.

It all depends on the scenario. If you end up needing the entire matrix per panel I agree with your synopisis, but if I only need three switches on one on another planning out how to split my matrix is a pain and very brittle to changes. Add another switch and I have to redo both panels wiring. If I don't split matrix between panels I'm wasting a lot of potential inputs.

 

That being said I'm not a big fan of either approach. I'm leaning towards a micro controller per panel using a daisy chain serial bus to communicate between them instead of one big I/O controller and running a bazillion wires to each panel.

Yes it depends on the scenario how much you reduce the wiring needed by using a matrix, but I'd say you at least always get some reduction in total. I don't have to redo any wiring when adding a switch. I only have to add the new wiring for the new switch. Of course you should split matrix between panels to avoid wasting inputs, but I don't see how that could be a bad thing since you have to split something between panels with both solutions. I also don't quite understand what you mean by planning. I want to make a panel with X switches, I look what is unused on the board and start wiring things up. I don't see any special planning needed :)

The serial interface is of course the neatest solution, but it will get very expensive in comparison :) I had that in mind before deciding to make this board.

Matrix=board connector? (flat-cable in this case?)

Break up matrix=divide flat-cable to more then 1 panel?

Matrix=board connector? (flat-cable in this case?)

Break up matrix=divide flat-cable to more then 1 panel?

The matrix is all the inputs on the board (not the analog ones). Breaking up the matrix means using the board for several panels.

Lighting panel is all wired and working! I overtightened one of the pots and it broke, so I've got another one on the way, plus some more for other panels, stall warning/fuel rcvr lights etc.

Next panel will be the fuel panel, but I'm gonna have to wait until payday in a week, because I'll be getting another Bodnar board and the other switches.

That being said I'm not a big fan of either approach. I'm leaning towards a micro controller per panel using a daisy chain serial bus to communicate between them instead of one big I/O controller and running a bazillion wires to each panel.

Yes, that's what works for me too.

Colin

Enlightening progress

Further update on the lighting panel.

Got the extra two pots I needed, the store was one short and I broke one so I had to wait for the internet to provide!

I wired the toggles with a common ground which is much nicer to run wires for, but the pots run individual grounds, I don't know if they can use commons too?

I used a dual gang pot for the flood light control, as I might play with some real flood lights in the future aswell, not sure yet, they work the same way and cost the same so why not I guess!

Anyway, got it all finished and Gadroc was very helpful in getting the pots working properly in Helios. One issue I'm still encountering though is that when I'm in multiplayer sometimes it'll take a lifetime before they respond, even though gameplay is smooth, any ideas on that one?

Heres some pics.

I'd say you're doing real well there Ragtop.

On the pots, you can certainly use common grounds and +5s. You can also, optionally, put a small cap across input and ground on each if it's not allredy in place on your board.

What input board did you say you using for the pots?

Cheers,

Colin

Leo Bodnar BU0836X. Why would I put a cap on them? I don't really understand all this electronics business!

If you experience that the axes flicker even though you don't touch the potentiometer, a capacitor helps filter that noise out. Using shielded cable to the pots also helps, as well as using pots with lower resistance. Lower resistance also draws more power, so don't get too crazy. We have had Windows disconnect our Bodnar board a couple of times due to overcurrent, even though most pots in our setup are 1k and some are 500 ohms. In our particular case it may be due to a faulty board or a bad USB-port however, because they shouldn't consume that much. Our axes flicker anyway however, but then our pit is more noisy than most home-cockpits due to the real equipment in it.

Leo Bodnar BU0836X. Why would I put a cap on them? I don't really understand all this electronics business!

Noise suppression, basically. Here's an example from a MicroChip development board:

Note also the 1K in-line resistor on the input pin. Always recomended for pots or switches. But that will be provided on the board by the manufacturer.

Cheers,

Colin

Avolga as I mentioned in my other thread, youd be much more efficient using ON/OFF and ON/OFF/ON switches.

 

The simplest way I can explain it is that everytime you see an ON in the title, that is an input required. So if you need 5 ON/OFF switches itll need 5 imputs. If you use 5 ON/ON switches youll need 10.

 

Helios allows you to use an OFF switch as an ON.

Hi Ragtop,

Thanks for your A.

by the way, did you come across list of rotary Potentiometer long/short shaft requirement?

Thanks

No problem :)

I have no idea about the required length of the pot shafts.

Speaking of which, I need to find some decent replica knobs for them, anyone know where I can procure a set?

No problem :)

 

I have no idea about the required length of the pot shafts.

Speaking of which, I need to find some decent replica knobs for them, anyone know where I can procure a set?

Hi,

i don't know regarding to replica but, check this site.

Knobs - http://www.sci.com.tw/PRODUCTS/ELECTRIC%20PARTS/elec-KNOBS.html

simple switching- http://www.sci.com.tw/PRODUCTS/switch/swit-toggle.html

I have sent them email regarding to some parts like Switching , knobs and more items.

if it will be reasonable pricing i will share.

3$ (too expensive) for one SW is the cheapest i could find near in my region.

hope they will provide better price.

I am willing to participate in case of bulk purchase, sw and knobs.

Thanks

Avi

I'm still here! Happy holidays to everyone still looking at my thread, hope you're all having a good end to the year. :xmas:

Christmas at work has meant the pit has taken a back seat unfortunately! But I'm still kicking away with it slowly.

Small update for Christmas, managed to get an afternoon to put the AHCP together finally. Bought a second Leo Bodnar BU0836X to wire it in with. Next up is the fuel panel, but that's not going to get tackled until January at best!

So with the current delays in mind, I thought I'd throw up some pictures of the pit in it's entirety at present. Paint is definitely in order, but I'll be damned if I can find some MDF primer in the UK that doesn't require me to sell my soul first!

Enjoy!

but I'll be damned if I can find some MDF primer in the UK that doesn't require me to sell my soul first!

First off, looking excellent!

How much are they asking over there for MDF primer?

I work at a hardware store and can purchase MDF primer with a discount. I could buy it here and ship it to you?

I don't use any primer!

Only spray a lot instead! Front and back is no problem, only sides of MDF is sucking paint like an alcoholic!

Hi Ragtop,

check this site - found it today.

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/prod_info.php?id=598 - 602.

they got some nice knobs needed to be painted but will cover full pit.

AVi

Great day today! MFD's!

Hey all, hope you've all had a great Christmas.

Much to my surprise, my wonderful Girlfriend and parents bought me the TM Cougar MFD's, without me even asking for them! After a couple of days to recover from all the food and driving to family homes, of course I had to set to work.

First up, I had to pull out the front panel, remove the AHCP, take out the display and do some drawing, which made me feel like I was stepping back further than I was progressing! Sometimes you really have to make a mess to go forwards.

Next I made some very careful cuts to house the MFD's. The reason I did this was to get the best screen estate possible. If I were to simply put them inside the borders of the wood, I would be missing out on about 16mm of display around the outer edges, which on a 19" just isn't an option. I've had to scale the gauges down enough already, any more and it'd just be too hard to read them.

Funnily enough this method meant that I didn't actually need to do anything at all to mount the MFD's, the area they sit in is actually tight enough that they hold perfectly tight with zero screwing/taping!

I had to make a slight modification to the top right corner of the AHCP to allow the left MFD to sit in place, but its barely noticeable in use, and once it's all painted black I don't think you'd be able to tell at all.

Screwing around with the Monitor Config file was something I really wasn't looking forward to, but it only ended up taking about an hour to get just right. For peoples reference, on a 1440x900 19", the MFD output should be about 380-390px square. Positioning of course is subjective.

I recently updated DCS so I need to get my other viewports sorted out again for the Clock, UHF repeater, RWR and CMSC, if anyone has the necessary files for it, that'd be great.

So, all in all, a successful afternoon! As always, here are some photos.

Just got some MDF primer and a little pot of test colour, so I'll be posting some photos a little later tonight so you can see how it turns out.

Painting MDF is something I've always been a little concerned about, mainly because of the risks of it absorbing all the paint and swelling up, so I'm just doing some tests on my cutoff pieces at the moment.

I still haven't decided how I'm going to tackle my panel text just yet. Because they're made of MDF, not acrylic, a laser engraver is not going to be an option. I looked into printing the text onto paper but it never seems to look very high quality in my opinion, the black never seems to be as deep as it should. Very concerning as I simply have no other ideas!

Well, primer testing is going well! Drying up nicely, and I'm testing out some grey now.

While I was waiting for the paint to dry I decided to throw my latest photo into Photoshop and see how it could potentially look after paint. Very big difference!

Check it out!

I still haven't decided how I'm going to tackle my panel text just yet. Because they're made of MDF, not acrylic, a laser engraver is not going to be an option. I looked into printing the text onto paper but it never seems to look very high quality in my opinion, the black never seems to be as deep as it should. Very concerning as I simply have no other ideas!

Perhaps not the perfect solution, but what about using a Dymo with clear tape and white color typing?

E.g. a Dymo Label Manager 210D.

I used it for my UFC and it works quite good... :thumbup:

Very interesting idea Shagrat, have you got any photos?

Very interesting idea Shagrat, have you got any photos?

Yep! Not tack sharp, but you get a good idea of how it looks like...

EDIT: The stripes are mainly 'cause the panel is made from PVC which is jaded. The tape is glossy. If your finish is glossy you will barely notice.