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Flight model and other early impressions


AcroGimp

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First off my qualifications:

 

FAA licensed commercial pilot, ~700 hrs total time, 350 in Yak-52 which I have owned for 3 and half years. I am a member of the Red Star Pilot's Association, I hold a Formation Wingman Card and am working on upgrading to Lead. I fly weekly, formation, aerobatics, I lead a casual 3-ship formation aerobatic team, and I even take her out for the occasional $200 hamburger or very short trip.

 

Initial observations as follows from a 10-15 minute free flight:

- Airplane does not start like my Yak, my start procedure is simple, straightforward and based on DOSAAF training, I was unable to start Yak on multiple attempts

- Start sounds are completely wrong, the pneumatic starter has a very unique and easily recorded sound - this is an instant immersion breaker

- Engine rotation on start unrealistically slow

- Energy retention in vertical upline maneuvers is incorrect, bleeds off too fast - this shows in quarter clover up, vanilla loop, cuban eight with entry speeds to 400 kph, I know that I can loop the Yak down to 210 kph entry speeds (it is very small edge of stall loop but still - thanks Gennady!)

- Engine power seemed off, should have no trouble developing ~750-800 mmHg manifold pressure at 1000m wide open with RPM 82% and it was down around 600

- There is something VERY off for rudder/yaw modeling - aircraft should require an increasing amount of right rudder when speed increases, the model requires left rudder which is literally the exact opposite of real life

- Aircraft should require more left rudder over the top when slow

- All 3 axes feel WAY too light but I will try curves to tame that

- Roll rate 'felt' fast but that could be result of no curves - I'll time it and see how it compares to real world

- My Yak has NEVER thrown a wingtip vortex, not once, ever, under any conditions or load - the prop on the other hands throws a beautifully wicked spiral vortex under heavy load in the right conditions

 

It's not all bad news though:

Cockpit and exterior models are fantastic, very true to life - in VR it is exactly like sitting in my Yak.

 

In-cockpit sounds when flying are pretty good.

 

The snap/snatch is very well modeled, this is a unique characteristic of the Yak that catches new Yak pilots by surprise and it is exactly as I experience in my Yak when I ask too much.

 

The post stall/ballistic behavior is also very well modeled and matches my experience.

 

Happy to discuss these observations further if requested. As I said, initial impressions based on a short free flight since I could not get the plane started - some may be addressed with control curves but there seem to be some foundational and critical errors in the flight model that I hope can be fixed - I want to enjoy this model.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)


Edited by AcroGimp
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OK, flew it again, still unable to get it started with my real world procedure.

 

Curves at 15 for all 3 axes, no deadzone feels close.

 

Roll rate is maybe 10% optimistic, should be 160 deg/sec as I recall.

 

Taxi, takeoff and climbout, stall and spin behavior are all close, incipient spin is too nose down and initial rate of rotation too high but pops out with proper spin recovery - power off upright explored, will check advanced spins when I get back home on Sunday (power on, aggravated and flat, both upright and inverted).

 

Verified that the speed/yaw behavior is BACKWARDS, I have a screengrab which is feet on floor at nearly 350 kph, that should require ~2 inches of right foot to counteract, it indicates it needs left rudder on both slip/skid balls.

 

Fix that and start sounds/behavior and it will be a good start.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)

Screen_180803_093240.thumb.jpg.e31d40eb7e69ce1a0c10e4624d789920.jpg


Edited by AcroGimp

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  • ED Team

Regarding the roll rate at least:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=203148

 

Regarding left rudder while speed increases: generally the plane has trim tab set for the certain speed to feel pedals neutral. As far as I remeber DCS Yak is not pre-trimmed. And as far as I just have found trim tabs setting does not work for Yak-52 yet... sorry, early access :).

 

Wingtip vortex is a bit overmodelled now... waits for the future humidity implementation to the atmosphere model.

 

About the MP at 1000 m: there is no problem to get 730mm at 100 m ASL ISA - a bit less than it should (750). I have an only idea about 600 mm - Nevada? :)

 

About energy retention... due to its nature Yak is very sensitive to the AoA/G-load during the maneuver... stop, sorry - Nevada?


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Regarding the roll rate at least:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=203148

 

Regarding left rudder while speed increases: generally the plane has trim tab set for the certain speed to feel pedals neutral. As far as I remeber DCS Yak is not pre-trimmed. And as far as I just have found trim tabs setting does not work for Yak-52 yet... sorry, yearly access :).

 

Wingtip vortex is a bit overmodelled now... waits for the future humidity implementation to the atmosphere model.

 

About the MP at 1000 m: there is no problem to get 730mm at 100 m ASL ISA - a bit less than it should (750). I have an only idea about 600 mm - Nevada? :)

 

About energy retention... due to its nature Yak is very sensitive to the AoA/G-load during the maneuver... stop, sorry - Nevada?

Yo-Yo, the issue with speed vs Yaw is that no Yak I have flown, and in addition to mine I have flown at least 7 others, plus Nanchang CJ-6's which are 'somewhat' similar ALL require lots of left rudder on takeoff, and the DCS Yak does seem to have that correct, but as speed increases, usually past about 250 kph (~125 kts) in mine, it starts to require right rudder to remain in coordinated flight, but especially at any speed at or beyond 300 kph such as you see on essentially any downline for an aerobatic figure it requires a substantial amount of right rudder - this would be left rudder in the other aerobatic planes I have flown like the Citabria, Christen Eagle, Great Lakes Biplane or the Extra 300L but that is because their engines rotate clockwise, opposite the Vedenyev in the Yak.

 

This behavior is totally incorrect and seems to be outside the laws of physics.

 

Given the reported origin of this project I simply cannot believe this behavior is present because anyone who has flown the Yak in real life would notice it about 5 minutes after takeoff.

 

I did figure out the start issue as ED has the ignition switch in the rear cockpit set OFF as default, that switch is safety-wired ON in my aircraft since I cannot control people in the back seat.

 

Start behavior is correct, the sound is still all wrong.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)


Edited by AcroGimp

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Yo-Yo, the issue with speed vs Yaw is that no Yak I have flown, and in addition to mine I have flown at least 7 others, plus Nanchang CJ-6's which are 'somewhat' similar ALL require lots of left rudder on takeoff, and the DCS Yak does seem to have that correct, but as speed increases, usually past about 250 kph (~125 kts) in mine, it starts to require right rudder to remain in coordinated flight, but especially at any speed at or beyond 300 kph such as you see on essentially any downline for an aerobatic figure it requires a substantial amount of right rudder - this would be left rudder in the other aerobatic planes I have flown like the Citabria, Christen Eagle, Great Lakes Biplane or the Extra 300L but that is because their engines rotate clockwise, opposite the Vedenyev in the Yak.

 

This behavior is totally incorrect and seems to be outside the laws of physics.

 

Given the reported origin of this project I simply cannot believe this behavior is present because anyone who has flown the Yak in real life would notice it about 5 minutes after takeoff.

 

I did figure out the start issue as ED has the ignition switch in the rear cockpit set OFF as default, that switch is wired ON ni my aircraft since I cannot control people in the back seat.

 

Start behavior is correct, the sound is still all wrong.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMA-122)

 

You are testing DCS Yak in Nevada, right?

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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You are testing DCS Yak in Nevada, right?
Yes, to be similar to my real world environment near San Diego I took off from Henderson (KHND) in NTTR.

 

I think the engine is running about 75 mmHg low on available power which is substantial as well, and my engine is tired at 1400 hrs TT.

 

@Beta Sokoi, the Yak oil temp is tough to manage in extreme cold, typically there is an actual blocking plate for the oil cooler to restrict air flow in.

 

Best approach, and keep in mind all of my Yak time is in SoCal so I don't have cold temp issues - best approach is warm engine up (gills closed) with oil cooler door fully closed as well, but I think the Caucasus missions will always suffer from cold oil temp in winter conditions.

 

In SoCal I see oil temps of 55-80 usually, able to safely runup after 5 minutes usually.

 

CHT and oil temp do seem to be behaving accurately in the DCS Yak Module.

 

Heading out for Big Bear Lake, will be back on later.

 

Again, I am offering this up as hopefully constructive criticism, I want to like this module and I want to get my Yak's paint scheme skinned on it.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)


Edited by AcroGimp

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Henderson elevation is 760 m ASL, San-Diego - ?

 

So, we need to have all input parameters equal to have correct results.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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AreoGimp maybe take some videos using hero type cameras showing everything in real life hyena do the same virtually to show the differences

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Henderson elevation is 760 m ASL, San-Diego - ?

 

So, we need to have all input parameters equal to have correct results.

With respect to manifold pressure I am not talking about on the ground, I am looking at airborne - 1,000M - 1,500M and Max Cont Power (82% RPM) which is my typical altitude and power setting for a formation sortie - my tired 1400 hour engine produces about 75 mmHg more MP than the DCS module, I need to bump the DCS Yak up to 90% RPM to get close.

 

The power issue is, IMO, a minor issue, the speed/yaw behavior is completely inaccurate, literally the opposite of reality.

 

I may not be able to login (mobile won't recognize my password) but if I can I'll continue while Wifey drives us to Big Bear and I 'work' on the laptop.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)


Edited by AcroGimp

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AcroGimp:

 

I've never flown a real Yak-52, but what surprises me is how much setting the prop pitch to fine decelerates the aircraft. Does it seem correct to you? Also, when I lower the flaps the plane pitches up, and I need to apply constant forward pressure on the stick, and I need a lot of power to maintain 160 kph even in a steep descent. Is that so in the real one too?

 

Finally, what trim settings do you use for takeoff/ landing?

 

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience, it's all very valuable info!


Edited by Reflected
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  • ED Team
With respect to manifold pressure I am not talking about on the ground, I am looking at airborne - 1,000M - 1,500M and Max Cont Power (82% RPM) which is my typical altitude and power setting for a formation sortie - my tired 1400 hour engine produces about 75 mmHg more MP than the DCS module, I need to bump the DCS Yak up to 90% RPM to get close.

 

The power issue is, IMO, a minor issue, the speed/yaw behavior is completely inaccurate, literally the opposite of reality.

 

I may not be able to login (mobile won't recognize my password) but if I can I'll continue while Wifey drives us to Big Bear and I 'work' on the laptop.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMA-122)

 

It can not be opposite. If you take a look at the rudder trim position at these screenshots you can see that trim position goes right as the speed increases. Your plane is trimmed for the certain speed by adjustment of a trim tab on the rudder. Say, for 150 kp. So, take a look at the screenshots. You can see that you apply left rudder pressure then right rudder pressure. The problem is that in DCS Yak the trim tab on its rudder IS NOT DEFLECTED at all. Yak has no asymmetrical fin like the Mustang or Bf-109, so, geometrically it always has rudder deflected left, but as the trim tab trims the rudder for zero pedal force at the certain LEFT deflection you can say that you push left or right rudder depending on speed.

Screen_180803_213941.thumb.png.86186655eb234f04df2213309dad83a5.png

Screen_180803_214018.thumb.png.ce9218397e072d9b8a07b84ebdee5959.png

Screen_180803_214055.thumb.png.2f1f532d7ff4673cd12a5e82db58db34.png

Screen_180803_214121.thumb.png.a1e364d80b140cea116417a015bab85a.png

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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First off, there is no in-flight trimmable rudder on the Yak-52, it is a fixed tab so it is only ever truly 'in trim' at one speed. For most Yak's in the US this is set at 110 kts (~202 kph) because that is our typical formation sortie speed that gives us plenty of performance margin. The movement of the nose as speed/power change is caused by P-Factor and the slipstream effect.

 

As speed increases that fixed tab becomes less and less effective until such time as it is nowhere near enough and opposite rudder is required to remain coordinated - in EVERY Yak I have ever flown, significant RIGHT rudder is required to remain in/near coordinated flight above 250 kph, ALL of them, no exceptions - it is just like, but opposite, for EVERY Western aerobatic aircraft I have EVER flown (Citabria, Christen Eagle II, Glasiar I, RV-4, RV-6, RV-7, RV-8, Great Lakes, Extra 300L), which ALL require right rudder on takeoff but left rudder as speed exceeds that neutral rudder trim speed.

 

If DCS is not modelling P-Factor and Slipstream effects then that would explain it, but if it is modeling P-Factor and Slipstream effect then it is doing it wrong at-speed for this module, it is currently correct on the ground and during takeoff.slow speed flight based on observations so far.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)


Edited by AcroGimp

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@Reflected, trim for takeoff with two aboard sees the trim tab on the left sidewall pointing down about 45 degrees as I recall.

 

The flaps are split flaps so pure drag, no lift, it requires a push on initial deployment but settles down pretty quick.

 

Rapid moves of the prop or throttle lever result in very noticeable changes for acceleration/deceleration - the blades are almost a foot wide and basically 8 feet from tip to tip, it is a giant speedbrake.

 

At mid-speed going from coarse to fine can actually result in acceleration depending on manifold pressure.

 

I don't use a lot of trim since most of my flying is all around the same speeds, I set takeoff trim, set once for a slight nose down condition when in formation or aerobatics since it lets me be more precise with my pitch inputs, and I don't re-trim after the break on the overhead, just make it do what I want down to the ground.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)


Edited by AcroGimp

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  • ED Team
First off, there is no in-flight trimmable rudder on the Yak-52, it is a fixed tab so it is only ever truly 'in trim' at one speed. For most Yak's in the US this is set at 110 kts (~202 kph) because that is our typical formation sortie speed that gives us plenty of performance margin. The movement of the nose as speed/power change is caused by P-Factor and the slipstream effect.

 

As speed increases that fixed tab becomes less and less effective until such time as it is nowhere near enough and opposite rudder is required to remain coordinated - in EVERY Yak I have ever flown, significant RIGHT rudder is required to remain in/near coordinated flight above 250 kph, ALL of them, no exceptions - it is just like, but opposite, for EVERY Western aerobatic aircraft I have EVER flown (Citabria, Christen Eagle II, Glasiar I, RV-4, RV-6, RV-7, RV-8, Great Lakes, Extra 300L), which ALL require right rudder on takeoff but left rudder as speed exceeds that neutral rudder trim speed.

 

If DCS is not modelling P-Factor and Slipstream effects then that would explain it, but if it is modeling P-Factor and Slipstream effect then it is doing it wrong at-speed for this module, it is currently correct on the ground and during takeoff.slow speed flight based on observations so far.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)

 

I have explained it above. The fixed trim tab in DCS Yak IS DEADLY NEUTRAL and can not be adjusted because of the bug. If it was adjusted for 200 kph you would apply RIGHT rudder at higher IAS.

I showed a tendency at the screenshots - less leftt rudder (POSITION!) as the IAS increases. If you apply a bias fixed trim tab gives you - you will apply RIGHT rudder as neutral point is passed.

 

Yellow arrow on the screenshots shows the possible NEUTRAL FORCE point. As the red tick showing rudder POSITION is at right from the arrow you would apply RIGHT RUDDER.

As the bug is fixed the aircraft will be factory trimmed at 200 kph, so you wil apply left or right rudder depending on speed.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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I'll accept the terminology confusion on what you meant about 'trim position' and I see a slight reduction with respect to required rudder input in your screengrabs but if that is the case then the module does not require enough left rudder for slow speed because without the trim tab influence MORE left rudder would be required in real life. It felt close to right to me on takeoff/climbout but during a figure with big speed changes like a quarter-clover, loop, cuban-eight, etc., there is a massive change in rudder input throughout the figure in the real plane and that is not currently modelled correctly.

 

If you think the tab effect will correct that behavior then I am happy to wait for it to be implemented and revisit the issue.

 

I did note that during loops and quarter-clovers the speed bleeds off a little faster than real plane and I felt that the required left rudder during those phases was unrealistically low - so I suggest there may be more going on than just the tab not being effective, since that should have resulted in more left rudder being required, not less.

 

Thanks for replying.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)

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Edit: late post, I'll leave it anyway. Sorry for the redundancy.

 

Gimp - By way of attempting to help ease the language barrier, Yo-Yo is not disagreeing with the real-world effect you're referring to. It's true, as air load increases, level flight coordinated rudder direction usually reverses. However this is due to the fixed rudder trim tab (or other airframe design choices like canted thrust-line.) You probably already know this, but to alleviate any confusion, the fixed rudder trim tab is set to reduce left/right-turning tendencies of the airplane at cruise (or most commonly flown) airspeeds. This means the pilot needs less rudder inputs at speeds he usually flies. Of course, as airspeed increases beyond the set point, dynamic pressure on the trim tab increases, and it becomes too effective, resulting in the reversal of required rudder input.

 

What Yo-Yo is saying is that the DCS:Yak-52 currently does not implement the fixed trim tab in its early access state. Once that is implemented and adjusted for neutral rudder at 200kph, I think you'll find that the airplane will exhibit that reversal.

 

Great thread though, thank you for providing some Yak user insights. I hope threads like this can result in productive changes to the DCS Yak!

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Every YAK52 (and superior CJ6:) I have flown exhibits the Longitudinal trim behavior Acro is talking about. This is an important thing to get right imo as it is very characteristic of the aircraft Yak pilots move their feet with speed to keep the aeroplane balanced.

 

 

It has been reported (YoYo see Bug 0044614)

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One thing that i feel is strange is the oil temp, from cold start it will never go into the yellow even but around 30-35c is max with full closed oil shutters? Cyl temp in the green.

 

 

Known issue reported and being looked at.

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No I get that @aaraon886, the issue is the plane's behavior is not fully consistent with the tab not being effective either, since it feels right at slow speeds when upright (e.g., takeoff, climbout), but it is not quite right when inverted or when fast it seems there may be more going on than just the tab.

 

Like I said though, I'm happy to wait and see if the tab change and any other updates improve it, I have high hopes for this module but find the current behavior unexpected given the reported origin of this module. Could be an artifact from porting if originally developed for a different engine, etc.

 

'Gimp (DISCO vVMFA-122)

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AcroGimp, nice to see your experience here. Thanks. I concur.

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Late to the party, but ensure that you deselect the "Take Off Assistance" from the Yak52's "Special" settings (not sure if that was done).

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