Eurofighter relative flight performance, feat. Gero Finke - Page 3 - ED Forums


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Old 09-15-2020, 05:04 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MiGCap1 View Post

Last edited by 4NGRY; 09-15-2020 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 09-15-2020, 05:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TrueGritLead View Post
Hello Hummingbird and everyone reading this,

as you mentioned above it is for me obviously not possible to give you detailed numbers as an answer. But important to know for everyone in the community is of course that we at TrueGrit are putting in all efforts to make the Typhoon for DCS a worthy module that comes as close to reality as legaly possible. So all our experiences and observations are reflected and will give you a representation of the Typhoons flight characteristics that will be very much fun to fly and guarantee success in your future virtual combats.

Before I get startet on the answers, let me give you some more global feedback and tips from my perspective as a former instructor pilot and Top Gun graduate:

The most critical and decisive factor in A/A combat is the human component! If you put a layman in a modern Formula 1 car and let him drive against Formular 1 champions in historic cars, he will very probably still loose the race. He might even not get of the starting grid because of the very complicated clutch mechanism or at least drive very poor laptimes because he probably does not know about aerodynamics and when his car will provide the best performance at a given time. Here a quick example: I scored once a gun track against an US F-16 in my old and inferior Phantom II, flying at Red Flag as Red Air at that time. The guy was totally overloaded with his systems and maneuvered his jet poorly.

There are three things that will decide an A/A combat. All of them are happening way before the actual engagement. All of them are influenced by yourself!:
First you need to know perfectly how your own weapon system works. In all details and aspects that can or will influence the engagement. The HOTAS of the Typhoon for example has more then 40 switch/button combinations. Not all of them are necessary at all times. But if you mix them up at the wrong time you will destroy your best situational awareness or employ the wrong (or no) weapon.
Second is your proficiency and continuity in training. A/A combat is all about deeply drilled reflexes and experiences. The more the better. You need to be „ahead of the jet“ so that you can anticipate the next moments and actions necessary, not to be surprised by what is happening. You need to be able to direct the fight and not be in a position of being only able to react. This training needs to be monitored and judged by highly experienced people that will make you better. You need to debrief every move otherwise you provide yourself negative training and do not realise it.
Third you need to know your opponent. You need to know perfectly the opponents airframe and weapons capabilities and you need to know his training and tactics. You need to know your weapon systems advantages in comparison to that specific opponent to profit from them and you need to know your disadvantages to avoid them. Depending on the scenario you are facing, this could be a lot of different platforms.

I know that most flight simmer in this community are very aware of all of that. But some new guys are probably (and hopefully) joining the community constantly. And for all of us it is still true and necessary: train as much and as hard as you can. A dog fight is over in seconds. The training for it takes a life time!

So as a first conclusion: it takes a lot of time and dedication to reach that level of proficiency. Do not be frustrated if it does not work out within a day. You will loose initially also against inferior platforms – but that will change as soon as you get well acquainted with your system. And if you did your best according to my three bullet points – as your opponent might as well has - finally the weapon system you are operating will make the difference. And exactly for that time it is a big advantage when you are sitting in a Eurofighter Typhoon!

I wrote those lines just to give a „qualifier“ to my experiences I made in my flying carreer. I never had a „real“ engagement with real weapons employed in anger. „Only“ training. But I made sure at all times I was ready for the instance it would be real. And in so far acted and maneuvered like it. Probably like the other guy in his jet too. But training also means that all those engagemants had very different objectives with different training aspects in mind. It could be unfair to judge and to interpret to much in my experiences if I tell you about other weapon systems that I won against without knowing the correct assumptions, parameters and restrictions.

Still I think you will get a good impression from the following:

The F-16 is a very capable weapon system in all respects! Of course there are „thousands“ of variations flying around. If you are strictly focussing on WVR („Dog Fight“) engagements, some aspects on the more modern variants are not helping. The engines got bigger and bigger, the stuff they put in and on the airframe got more and more, but what remained is a pretty small wing area that has to deliver the lift. It is pretty exactly half of the Typhoon (50 square meter). So even if you jettison most of your stuff in the F-16 prior to going into a WVR fight (which you most probably should do in any case) and consider that against missiles like an IRIS-T there are not many seconds that you can use your afterburner because of your proper IRCM, the F-16 looses out on the aerodynamical aspect. I myself had never a problem of fighting an F-16 but must admit that those fights were physically the hardest for me.

The F-18 is equally capable in general as an F-16. But in comparison it has not enough thrust. That still is true for the E/F variants because they are also much heavier. The F-18 is an AoA fighter. It has an outstanding capability to point the nose and get shots off. Quite similar to thrust vectored Flanker variants. That is not possible in a Typhoon. HOB missiles obviously change the fight in this respect for both sides. Comming down to a gun fight the F-18 is really hurting on thrust and is not a big challenge for the Typhoon. Those fights tend to be very slow speed and low g´s.

The F-22 guys we met were always a bit surprised what can be done with the Typhoon. The airframes are matched pretty well. Here my little speech from above comes well into play. The training focus of the F-22 fleet tended not to concentrate on WVR for obvious reasons. So if they end up with a Typhoon in a knife fight there is no telling in advance who is going to tell the story at the bar.

The Rafale is very similar to the Typhoon in many aspects. Here also the less thrust is an issue.

Last but not least to answer question 8:
One of my last flights in my military career was a BFM training sortie against a Dutch F-16. My opponent was an approx. 25 year old CR wingman who just completed his training. We met over the Dutch North Sea with a BFM floor of 6000´. After three BFM sets (OFF/DEF/HiAA) he called for a short break because he pulled so many g´s that he was physically completely exhausted. I won all of the sets, even the defensive ones! I was 47 years old by this time, base commander and with a really poor continuity in my last year due to the many staff tasks. At that moment I was extremely proud to sit in a Eurofighter Typhoon!

Sorry for so much text, and maybe I did not answer exactly as expected but such is life and A/A combat. Always expect the unexpected!

Thanks Gero,

I think it’s worth to add to the final portion of your post, where you fought the F-16, that the typhoon specific anti G equipment is quite sophisticated in relation to the standard anti g suits.

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Old 09-15-2020, 07:27 PM   #23
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"won the defensive sets"
Actually that's pretty hard to do, shouldnt be possible if closely matched and performing, so "something" was better on that day
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:10 PM   #24
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Excellent reading Gero, thanks for sharing.

Since you mentioned the Phantom, I have a curiosity about the ICE (Improved Combat Efficiency) update: although it is a rather dated aircraft, I never been able to find images (on the web) that show the differences between the cockpit of a "Standard" F-4E and an F-4F ICE.

On one occasion, I read a caption as a corollary of an image of an alleged cockpit of an F-4F ICE that said (more or less, I quote from memory) "contrary to what one might think, the cockpit of the F- 4F ICE is very similar to that of the F-4E ". And indeed, at first glance, they looked quite identical (at least for the pilot's seat).

I always wondered how it was possible to use the AIM-120s with only gunsight (maybe it was an operation mainly managed by WSO?).

Apologize if I went a little OT and thank you in advance for your possible reply.


Last edited by phant; 09-15-2020 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Pikey View Post
"won the defensive sets"
Actually that's pretty hard to do, shouldnt be possible if closely matched and performing, so "something" was better on that day
Yeah, that indicates a substantial advantage in both instantaneous and sustained turn rate.
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Old 09-16-2020, 02:11 AM   #26
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Or an inexperience adversary who pissed all his energy away on the first turn and was left with no options.
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Old 09-16-2020, 05:57 AM   #27
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I always wondered how it was possible to use the AIM-120s with only gunsight (maybe it was an operation mainly managed by WSO?).

Hi Phant!

You are absolutely right. There is no difference that you really could make out. Obviously the RDR was very different since it was the APG-65 then. The HUD indication was in comparison to modern HUD pretty useless. All the RDR work was done as you guessed correctly by the WSO. Weapon employment though was done by the pilot.
The F-4F ICE was still a very "manual / raw data" aircraft. All necessary calculations had to be performed in your head. Conequently crew coordination was a big thing.


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Old 09-16-2020, 07:28 AM   #28
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Hey guys - let me says some words to my person:

I am -TITS- and flew the Typhoon for a about 10 years in real-life together with Gero in the famous Jagdgeschwader Richthofen. I am now Lead Testpilot for TrueGrit and I will compare the Questions against a clean F-16

1.) Higher
2.) Higher
3.) Way higher
4.) Way better
5.) Less, due to the FCS limiting the AOA.
6.) Clean F-16 vs. Eurofighter with 2 Tanks (I won)
7.) You can go a bit over 9.0Gz if you are clean, around 0.3Gz.

One other experience: The Typhoon does not decelerate as well as other aircraft because it is built so slick...and the engines have so much thrust - even in idle...


Lead SME Eurofighter Typhoon
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:51 AM   #29
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Thanks Gero and TITS for your answers.

It must feel great to advertise such a dream for most of DCS users. You at TG do a great job already. I can't wait to have the DCS Typhoon.

@Gero: I'm out of service from the Luftwaffe (no pilot) more than 2 decades. I'm very impressed (and a bit positively jealous) that you had the opportunity to fly a Typhoon in an engagement with the age of 47. Is this a usual age for Luftwaffe pilots these days?
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
@Gero: I'm out of service from the Luftwaffe (no pilot) more than 2 decades. I'm very impressed (and a bit positively jealous) that you had the opportunity to fly a Typhoon in an engagement with the age of 47. Is this a usual age for Luftwaffe pilots these days?
There are currently active Eurofighter pilots in the Luftwaffe up to the age of 54 at least. Some even just obtain their Eurofighter qualification at this age.
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