Jump to content

Guess what! Easy AAR!


Gregkar

Recommended Posts

When learning something like skiing you are not just shoved done the expert slope the first time out. You work up to it.

Same here:

1. First KC-130 then KC-135 then S-3B

2. Straight and level then in bank (then inverted ;))

3. Day then night

4. Clear weather then clouds then precipitation

5. No wind/no wake turbulence then more wind/turbulence with wake turbulence

 

In the long missions you can make slots for airstarts, closer to the AO, for people to not require AAR or landing.

 

That we already have simplifications is not an argument to have more of them. If anything I would like to remove them. Wrong allignment for cat? No hookup for you, do it again until you do it properly.

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don’t see how this topic warrants 21 pages of discussion. Who needs to AAR so desperately? None of the missions in DCS require this afaik. Aside from the Maple Flag qualification courses. Even realistic Campaigns like Red Flag aren’t long enough to need it. How does a player have time for two hour missions but doesn’t have time to practice AAR? Yeah I did learn it myself but I really never use it.

i9-13900K @ 6.2GHz oc | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | 24GB GeForce RTX 4090 | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don’t see how this topic warrants 21 pages of discussion. Who needs to AAR so desperately? None of the missions in DCS require this afaik. Aside from the Maple Flag qualification courses. Even realistic Campaigns like Red Flag aren’t long enough to need it. How does a player have time for two hour missions but doesn’t have time to practice AAR? Yeah I did learn it myself but I really never use it.

I use it fairly regularly on the missions I play. I mostly fly the F-18 and it has relatively short legs. Couple a long mission with having to wait in the stack above the carrier until it's your turn and AAR becomes unavoidable.

 

Mind you, I don't think an easy mode should be added in the game, I'm just answering your question. IMO, people who want to use AAR should train in it, the same way they train to take off, land and do carrier recoveries. If we add easy mode AAR, we might as well go ahead and add easy mode CASE I, where you don't have to worry about making a good pass. Where's the fun in that? There is an Easy Flight mode in the game. Coupled with disabling wake turbulence, it should make AAR significantly easier already.

The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord.

CVW-17_Profile_Background_VFA-34.png

F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3
-
i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mostly fly the F-18 and it has relatively short legs. Couple a long mission with having to wait in the stack above the carrier until it's your turn and AAR becomes unavoidable.

Oh good. So if I learn AAR on the Hornet I’ll actually get to use it :thumbup:

i9-13900K @ 6.2GHz oc | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | 24GB GeForce RTX 4090 | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh good. So if I learn AAR on the Hornet I’ll actually get to use it
Most definitely. I've played two user made campaigns (Exigent Riviera and Cage the Bear) and they both need it, for example. I'd say it's a must in several missions, both SP and MP.

The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord.

CVW-17_Profile_Background_VFA-34.png

F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3
-
i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting. I am curious as to how long some of you think is an average amount of time pilots have spent practicing air to air refueling. I am only talking about hooking up to the basket, not learning TACAN to find the refueling plane or learning the proper way to communicate with the refueling plane. I am not asking what it took you personally but a reasonable average amount. Some of you must know several pilots who have this skill. I would like to know because if most of you come up with a time amount which is significantly less than the time I have already spent then perhaps I need rethink whether or not I have the coordination to accomplish this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5-10 hours sounds about right, but its important to spread it out over time. 5 hours over a week builds muscle memory, 5 hours in a day builds frustration.

if you're practicing right, you ought to be able to fuel after this initial investment, but it will remain a highly perishable skill until you rack up several times more hours.


Edited by probad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5-10 hours sounds about right, but its important to spread it out over time. 5 hours over a week builds muscle memory, 5 hours in a day builds frustration.

Right. And you need to take a break to let your subconscious mind continue to work on it... like using the Force...

i9-13900K @ 6.2GHz oc | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | 24GB GeForce RTX 4090 | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the response. Wow. I think I have spent a lot more than that. I think I am starting to understand why some pilots are wondering what is the problem. 5 to 10 hours is a fair amount of hours to learn a specific skill but hardly unreasonable. I think I am going to give it a couple more hours per your recommendations for how to spread them out and make sure I keep close tabs on the time spent. If don't see some real improvement it's unlimited fuel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldnt really focus too much on the hours others claim. If you have oodles of experience with close formation flying, its gonna be a fair bit easier than then when you still have trouble just staying close to the tanker. And if you do, then maybe start there, just fly formation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

time alone isn't a guarantor of anything, if you aren't diagnosing your outcomes correctly you may well end up just baking in bad habits instead. bad habits are worse than no habits, because bad habits must first be broken before new habits can be learned.

 

i dont like the implication that somehow there is such a thing as being able to fly formation but not being able to aar. aar is flying formation. when you aar you are put to the test to see if you can really hold formation and the tolerance really isn't even that strict. if you can't even keep yourself inside like a 20ft box can you really honestly say you're capable of flying formation?

 

this is why the call for easy aar reeks to me. every concession made encourages more self deception, more bad habits that beget more lies and deception that require even more concessions to uphold. all these 'aids' that people want, from 'gates' to 'lines' all feed a pathological avoidance of the commitment that produces positive results. there is no substitute for simply practicing and honing your abilities, and there is no myth or magic or intensity of zeal required -- only genuine desire and commitment.


Edited by probad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

time alone isn't a guarantor of anything, if you aren't diagnosing your outcomes correctly you may well end up just baking in bad habits instead. bad habits are worse than no habits, because bad habits must first be broken before new habits can be learned.

 

i dont like the implication that somehow there is such a thing as being able to fly formation but not being able to aar. aar is flying formation. when you aar you are put to the test to see if you can really hold formation and the tolerance really isn't even that strict. if you can't even keep yourself inside like a 20ft box can you really honestly say you're capable of flying formation?

+1

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounds to me like some of you believe that if someone is committed they will make it happen no matter what their capabilities are. I do agree about the bad habits. The issue there is I have been through about 10 or 15 tutorials and I have gotten or surmised all kinds of advice. One said to put auto pilot on and that even though it disengages it still does something. Someone else recommended extending the air brake part way. Watching some people it appears they "lunge" at the basket in the final 10 feet and they are going so fast the refueling plane starts yelling break away. Much of this certainly is personal preference but at this point I am not sure what ends up a bad habit. Perhaps I should be diagnosing more along with the practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@OldFalcon I really wouldn't sweat it. The more you fixate on it, the more frustrated you'll get.

 

I was playing DCS for years until I completed my first AAR. I would set up a refueling mission, try, fail, try again and again for 15-30 minutes and finally get frustrated and give up. I'd do this a couple of times, every few months. Of course, that didn't produce results. I reached a point where I had done pretty much everything else, except learn how to AAR and fly formation. Granted, I had a really cheap stick (not even HOTAS) at the time, but this trend lasted for a year after I got my Warthog too. After making the decision to actually give it a real shot, I looked around and ended up with three things: 1) relax your fingers (don't have a death grip on the stick, which can happen if you get stressed or frustrated), 2) wiggle your toes, so you kind of remember to not let your body go stiff (again, because of the stress or concentration) and 3) don't set up a dedicated mission for AAR. You'll go in with the wrong mindset, predisposed.

 

Instead, make AAR just part of a mission, preferably after you've completed and are returning to base. You'll have downed some bandits, or done some CAS or whatever and you did your job, you're satisfied and you're returning to base to land, taxi and shut down, just to get that full DCS sortie experience. But your last task is to get some fuel from a tanker. You go, you try. If you manage, perfect. If you don't, it's OK, go back to base, land, taxi etc. You still leave the mission with a good feeling. You don't associate AAR with something bad.

After I applied the above, I had completed my first AAR within a couple of missions. And if it takes longer, that's OK. You're still playing DCS and doing all the other stuff you like in the meantime.


Edited by Harker

The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord.

CVW-17_Profile_Background_VFA-34.png

F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3
-
i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i do believe anyone who puts in the correct sort of effort will be met with success. aar is not something that you need to be superhuman to accomplish, if it was, it wouldn't ever have been adopted in the first place.

 

one of the things that can lead you astray is right advice about wrong things. for example, if you have issues with pitch oscillations, you might directly account it to the stick; a preponderance of attention on the stick (like... curves) may well conceal the actual issue lying with pitch control using the throttle (maybe you have a wooden left hand). this can result in frustration where you think you're doing everything right (according to what you know) except you're not. the frustration is what leads to bad habits where you try all sorts of desperate measures to cope with incomplete understanding.


Edited by probad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounds to me like some of you believe that if someone is committed they will make it happen no matter what their capabilities are.

For sure some would take much longer to learn the skill than the others but it's still possible (ever watched "People are amazing"?) unless one has some limitation/disability and it's been reported many times that better hardware will make it far easier. Same as with all other pilot skills.

What got me into AAR was pure challenge but if someone needs it for a mission I guess it's a big motivator to learn it. Before that I missed the skill but nowhere in my head came the idea to somehow get it cheap.

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

draconus, we got your point by now. You are hardcore. You want it realer than real (except when it comes to things like G tolerance or proving theoretical knowledge). I bet if your smoke detector goes off while flying DCS you will land your DCS plane first before you "get out of the cockpit" to see whats burning. We are in awe. But this isnt for or about people like you.

 

I will also say the "anyone can learn it" argument is horse shit. Ive flown with enough RC and RL glider pilots with decades of experience to know some people will never acquire the fine motor skills that others are born with. I can teach just about anyone to fly an rc plane or drone, I can teach many to fly a freestyle drone, but no amount of practice will allow me or everyone to learn

.
Edited by Vertigo72
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is all good advice. And it is nice to know that others have experienced what I am experiencing. Making AAR part of a mission sounds like a good idea. I am tired of fly - miss - fly again - miss. I have gotten to a point where I seem so close and yet can't get any farther. Hence the "drop back and punt" attitude for an easier AAR option. I can actually move right up to the basket and yet every time the basket suddenly drops out of site going right through the end of the refueling probe. Hence I think I do need to look at this issue of pitch control using the throttle. I remember a movie with Tom Selleck called "Mr. Baseball". Where he went from the winning attitude of "knock it out of the park" to "just don't miss" and ended up going from the Yankees to a Japanese league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will also say the "anyone can learn it" argument is horse shit. Ive flown with enough RC and RL glider pilots with decades of experience to know some people will never acquire the fine motor skills that others are born with. I can teach just about anyone to fly an rc plane or drone, I can teach many to fly a freestyle drone, but no amount of practice will allow me or everyone to learn

.

 

Exactly.

 

We need to understand that not all have same talents, skills, hardware or even time to learn to do one of the most challenging tasks in a aviation.

 

Here people make the formation flight sound like it is super easy and everyone can do it with couple hours training.

 

And then that it takes just couple hours to learn master the Air-to-Air refueling.

 

Yet in the reality, pilots do not clock two hours to be skilled in formation flying.

They do not clock couple hours to be masters in air refueling.

They do not clock couple hours to master carrier landing.

 

This is the common problem in every area of expertise, that some people are just talented for something that others are not, and no matter the skill these others are not to be as good as those some talented people.

 

And DCS is a game, its purpose is to be fun.

 

And that is where we need to make a separation, split. We need to allow easy and simple modes, assistance even for many tasks. Because there are people who gets enjoyment that way and they are happy!

 

But that does NOT mean that DCS is limited to that, as it can be made far more realistic, more demanding, far more difficult as in real life.

It is not "this or that", it can be both.

 

And some people does never understand that at all.

 

I have got flagged by many for my own personal set where I do not use mouse nor keyboard because they are not realistic. The immersion grows when you get to fly the aircraft with the same limitations as the real pilots does, meaning you can not check your six while you pull 9 G and you can't take your hands off from HOTAS when you pull 9 G, and you can't take your hands of your HOTAS middle of dog fight when you are keeping your eyes on target so you don't lose it etc. Such things to learn comes by hard way that you have only real functions bind to your HOTAS that real aircraft does have, nothing more, nothing less.

 

But that doesn't at all mean that everyone should be doing that, as some enjoy shooting water guns, some enjoy shooting nerf guns, some enjoy shooting paintball, some enjoy using BB, and then there is the real war with guns that kill, and some lives only when their lives are at risk.

 

It is not away from anyone that there would be easy air refueling function for those who just doesn't have the skill set to perform air refueling efficiently. It is not away from anyone. Not a bit by any means!

And it doesn't hurt their experience, nor learning to become better pilots when they use such a assistance feature. Completely opposite, as they learn to be relaxed, they learn to accept that they can do it, they learn to take it as just one step between other steps. And they could adjust the effect strength step by step as they need until they might get a skill level where they can just turn the feature off and be happy that they can do it now by their own skills!

 

Enjoyment from the start to the end, without frustrations, without feeling inferior etc.

 

But here some people are like that when their kids want to learn to drive a bicycle, that they o and they buy them a 28" racing bicycle and just say "Deal with it!".

No, everyone needs to start from the start. From the begin.

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just throwing this out here, as I just posted a link to a freestyle drone flight and realized it may actually be helpful in more than one way.

 

Its obviously not going to teach you AAR, but nothing will teach you fine throttle control like flying a racing/freestyle drone (or sim). Few other kinds of flying require similar precise control or will expose weaknesses in your motor skills or flight controllers. And if you already mastered AAR and you can catch that 3 wire with one hand tied behind your back, and want to challenge yourself, maybe give it a try, see how you get on with it, this one is free:

 

https://www.realdronesimulator.com/

 

2 week free trial:

https://dronesimulation.co.uk/

 

This one is less realistic but more fun and almost free:

 

https://thedroneracingleague.com/drl-sim-3/

 

Full disclaimer, I fly these using a taranis RC radio, a decade of muscle memory is hard to unlearn and I struggled flying those sims with my pc hotas, especially my TCWS throttle. Perhaps its not good enough, or perhaps Im not good enough at using it, but either way its good to find out and may point towards a weakness affecting me (or you) doing AAR too.


Edited by Vertigo72
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, everyone needs to start from the start. From the begin.

So those who can AAR already... where did they start?

 

 

"Not taking away from anyone" argument could be pulled about anything like adding unicorns. Yet I care for what is DCS and express my opinion to not include them.

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too care for DCS and have just recently learnt to AAR consistently, so an easy AAR option would be something I wouldn't use, but I would still support it being implemented. The more ppl who join DCS and stay the better it is for everyone, and if it takes something like this then I say do it. It's not as if it's going to detract from any-ones game.

And as for what's important, that depends entirely on peoples point of view, People who play MP would argue that time spent on SP is a waste, SP players would could say the opposite.

We are are all here for one thing basically, enjoyment, so whether you are a hard-core realist or just a casual gamer we're all equally important for the future of DCS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So those who can AAR already... where did they start?

 

From the begin....

 

 

"Not taking away from anyone" argument could be pulled about anything like adding unicorns. Yet I care for what is DCS and express my opinion to not include them.

 

So please provide evidence that this wanted easy AAR feature would be taking away from you the capability to fly DCS as now.... Please, do so that we can all then simply reject this wish as it would take away from skilled and talented players like you from flying DCS like right now....

 

No, it wouldn't take anything away from you. You would still be flying exactly like this far, but those who finds it too challenging, could get it done with good probability and continue their missions, even you could be flying next to them waiting your turn, without getting frustrated when they keep failing in connection.... Time after time.... And so on even you would have far more fun, regardless that some people would have used "Easy AAR" setting....

 

But you are free to not want to see unicorns, as we have not yet even seen the cows.... It is not away from you that DCS includes cows.... Sorry, in your opinion it is away from you, so the cows must be removed!

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is an issue that may make an easy AAR option perhaps more tolerable is the marketing aspect. It appears to me that having these options tend to bring in more buyers because they address the desires of more people. Of course an argument could be made in the opposite direction but without making this message too long I believe the more people they appeal to the more money they make. The more money they make the more developers they can pay and the sooner we get things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...