Guess what! Easy AAR!

 

Use a stick extension.

 

If you look down the cockpit of your fancy... Hog/Hornet/Harrier... you will notice that the stick is... what... half a meter long? All to the bottom of your aircraft. And yip. Even in your mighty-morphing-fly-by-wire-hornet. So using an extension and/or axis zoom is nothing what i would call cheating. It is simple part of the simulation.

Exactly.

Forget curves and all of as much as possible to get extension.

It would be nice that ED documents would include cockpit dimensions as well. After all it should be public data.

This just so that players learn that their 20 cm joystick is not suppose to be as accurate as a 70 cm stick in aircraft, that even might have two separate axis for pitch and roll (the roll axis might be at middle of whole stick) as pilot legs are on the way.

But.... Not all can do that. Why we need easier mode for some players, as DCS is suppose to be fun and the configuration should be possible.

All who want challenge should be able to get it. All who want real doctrine should get it. And those who want infinite fuel should be able for that too...

There is difference on the infinite fuel and simple refueling. As other allows player fly indefinitely but with full loaded aircraft. No reason to fly at tanker to get fueled and back. While other forces to come refueling but will give easy way to connect and get fueled and go back.

One might like to fly 3-4 hour missions, but does not want to fly acrobatics in formation.

Two separate things. It is like telling that players interested in A-A should learn to do A-G pounding as well.

So while one might like to fly as doctrine, they should have option for simple air refueling, as is rearming and refueling simple on ground and we have simple aircraft starts and stops, as well simple radios etc. So they can perform the doctrine but still enjoy rest of the process. As simple rearming doesn't mean one must fly in game mode.

In the world of radio controlled drones and planes, where we control craft that may literally be >10x as responsive and have roll rates in the many 1000s of degrees per second, and control that with a tiny little stick of a few cm, we almost universally use rates. Just a switch that controls how much control authority a given amount of stick movement gives. So we set it to high to do our crazy aerobatics, but setting it medium or low we still have sufficient precision when we come in to land or want to do formation flying or "flying scale" as we call it (make it look like the real aircraft scaled down, hard to do when a few mm stick travel results in faster roll rate than the real plane could even do).

When you fly a 1:15 RC model, your controls can as well be 1:15 ;-)

So your 50 cm stick in cockpit becomes 3.33 cm only ;-P

When you fly a 1:15 RC model, your controls can as well be 1:15 ;-)

LOL. Thats one way of looking it at I guess. Now if only I could also scale down my fingers, Id be golden!

Maybe a feature that would be little work for the developpers and would satisfy everybody would be to allow to refuel 'instantly', that is, you just need to catch the basket or the boom and hop your tanks are full. A big cheat, of course, but it shouldn't be very complicated to implement, right? And then you can fly any mission with anybody with a little practice.

(I did not read the whole discussion, maybe that has been proposed before)

I am not against either - I respect wishlist. Just can't understand arguments thrown to defend it. 3h long mission for someone with scarce time? Sounds like plenty.

... It could be 3h once in a month you know ?...

Bombing is easy but AAR not? I bet someone trained a lot bombing and not much AAR.

Laser/GPS guided bombs don't require any flying skill. With CCIP, you just have to put the piper on the target... Come on don't tell me that it is as hard as AAR. And planes without CCIP cannot AAR, so your statement makes no sense.

Besides if you are bad at bombing, you might miss the target and fail the mission, whereas without "easy AAR", you simply can not take part in the mission if and AAR is planned, period.

Unlimited fuel kills immersion but easy AAR not? I tried really hard and failed to get the idea.

There is a difference between unlimited fuel and AAR, I will put an example to explain it:

With unlimited fuel, you can take max bombs load, take of from one side of the map, bomb targets at the other side of the map and come back for landing: you're good. Mission complete and you never looked at your fuel the entire flight !

With "easy AAR" you still have to manage your fuel, exactly like without "easy AAR" ! You must rendez-vous with the tanker and perform the AAR (in a very simplified way), so you are doing the exact same mission as you would without the "easy AAR". You are just not bothered by the complexity of the refueling part.

Although I can understand if you think that both options kill the immersion for you, you can admit that there is a difference. This difference is enough for me to break the immersion for "unlumited fuel".

Don't you guys have a need to actually achieve something than buy into it? Why chosing DCS at all? Mind you there are players, me included, that want it actually harder - more realistic - with proper hose physics, collision model and ability to destroy the basket/boom, etc. And I even can't AAR from a boom myself yet.

Everyone does not play DCS to fullfill their need for achievments :). They just want to play in a beautiful and realistic environment. It is not a requirement to adhere to a (yours?) specific point of view to play DCS. Everyone has their reasons and it should not be needed to discuss them.

It is good that there is a small debate on this topic but most arguments against the idea are basically "if you can't AAR then you should just train and you will be able to AAR" or "unlimited fuel is the same". While it forces us to developp why we would appreciate this feature, which is good if ED reads this, it only relies on subjectiv and personnal opinions. Therefore it does not prove that our arguments are not valid, nor that this wish is unfeasible, useless or would harm the game.

Instead of the funnel, how about just forcing the play to stabilize the aircraft in pre-contact position... just as is currently required with full realism AAR? That solves closure and position problems. Then when the tanker clears contact, AI autopilot takes over. The jet is returned to the pre-contact position by the AI after refueling is complete (or aborted via radio option), and they can resume their mission. It is certainly possible.

I remember AAR in old Lock On: your altitude and speed were locked (speed was just above tanker speed until reaching the basket) and your controls were extremely limited so that you could steer the aircraft towards the basket. It was very difficult to miss the basket and therefore made AAR very easy. After refueling was complete, the controls would unlock.

So yes it might not be too difficult for ED. I hope that some day they will make it happen :)

EDIT:

Maybe a feature that would be little work for the developpers and would satisfy everybody would be to allow to refuel 'instantly', that is, you just need to catch the basket or the boom and hop your tanks are full.

I would be happy with that too ! :thumbup:

LOL. Thats one way of looking it at I guess. Now if only I could also scale down my fingers, Id be golden!

And I thought that all is who build and fly RC planes scale our egos down in the scale of model so we can fly them....

(Wanted to say balls but....)

Maybe a feature that would be little work for the developpers and would satisfy everybody would be to allow to refuel 'instantly', that is, you just need to catch the basket or the boom and hop your tanks are full. A big cheat, of course, but it shouldn't be very complicated to implement, right? And then you can fly any mission with anybody with a little practice.

(I did not read the whole discussion, maybe that has been proposed before)

I don't think that is enough. As the challenge for many is to get even in formation. So even instant touch with connection doesn't help.

And it can be bad for rest of the flight, where you wait them to finish refueling.

Or they wait you to even touch the basket.

Just let be a tractor beam that pulls you in when you are in proper position and speed.

Easier to do as you don't need to program any modules, only the tanker to "catch" you.

I don't think that is enough. As the challenge for many is to get even in formation. So even instant touch with connection doesn't help.

 

And it can be bad for rest of the flight, where you wait them to finish refueling.

Or they wait you to even touch the basket.

 

Just let be a tractor beam that pulls you in when you are in proper position and speed.

Easier to do as you don't need to program any modules, only the tanker to "catch" you.

I like this idea as you could also make slider that would change the "strength" of that tractor beam. Just like the take-off assist for warbirds.

That way one could learn AAR without the frustration by slowly reducing the assist as they get better at it.

I don't think that is enough. As the challenge for many is to get even in formation. So even instant touch with connection doesn't help.

 

And it can be bad for rest of the flight, where you wait them to finish refueling.

Or they wait you to even touch the basket.

 

Just let be a tractor beam that pulls you in when you are in proper position and speed.

Easier to do as you don't need to program any modules, only the tanker to "catch" you.

+1

I like this idea as you could also make slider that would change the "strength" of that tractor beam. Just like the take-off assist for warbirds.

Didnt even know that was a thing, a variable take off assist? what module has that?

That way one could learn AAR without the frustration by slowly reducing the assist as they get better at it.

Im not sure. reminds me of flying in a two seater with a student/instructor and both holding the stick and steering and correcting. Its really a terrible way to learn as you are "fighting" each other and unsure what it is you did, what the other guy did and what the plane is doing by itself. It may also not be easy to implement "tractor beams".

Didnt even know that was a thing, a variable take off assist? what module has that?

TF-51 at least - special options.

Everyone that denies any 'help' or kind of 'easy AAR mode' as unrealistic, too game-like etc. should maybe take a look at, what the industry is working at: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/04/airbus-achieves-worlds-first-fully-automatic-refuelling-contacts.html

Looking ahead with new air defence concepts like FCAS (https://www.airbus.com/defence/fcas.html ) such concepts had to be implemented as then e.g. accompanying drones need to AAR completely automatic ...

It may also not be easy to implement "tractor beams".

The "tractor beam" wouldn't be module dependent, but would work with any object. You simply override the unit position and speed in the space.

And it is good idea that there would be a various levels for its size and strength. So you can really have very easy "snap on" effect, or very slight where you need to be close to the correct parameters to it have an effect.

You are not fighting against the system input, as it will completely override your inputs when your inputs are inside the scale of the "tractor beam".

So example:

MAX EFFECT

+/- 50 km/h speed range

+/- 7 degree per second pitch/roll/yaw range.

500 meters max range

200 meters width at max range

MINIMUM EFFECT

+/- 3 km/h speed range.

+/- 1.5 degree per second pitch/roll/yaw range.

30 meters max range

5 meters width at max range

So if you fly inside those parameters to that "funnel", then the tanker will "activate tractor beam" that simply slows you down to proper speed and sucks you in to the hose.

If you give input that would lead to larger parameters than that, then it gets cancelled and you are "released".

Now you would have a slider that sets the parameters between those two.

So if you can fly inside those parameters in relationship to the tanker, then you can be "hands-off" mode for it. You just get pulled in to basket and automatically in formation flying with it until you press Disconnect or you give override input.

Here's an example of of how AAR worked before AFM/PFM were introduced to Flaming Cliffs. This is probably exactly what you're looking for...:blink:

EDIT: Here's how it looked in the F-15C

So if you fly inside those parameters to that "funnel", then the tanker will "activate tractor beam" that simply slows you down to proper speed and sucks you in to the hose.

If you give input that would lead to larger parameters than that, then it gets cancelled and you are "released".

Ok. that I wouldnt mind. Its more like a full autopilot that engages in some (variable) area and speed range. I understood it as something that nudges you in the right direction with a variable force so if you are a little slow it pushes you forward. But that wouldnt work I think

Ok. that I wouldnt mind. Its more like a full autopilot that engages in some (variable) area and speed range. I understood it as something that nudges you in the right direction with a variable force so if you are a little slow it pushes you forward. But that wouldnt work I think

I don't think it could be said as "autopilot" that would be in the module itself. As this would be directly in the tanker in itself. So module developers don't need to touch their codes.

Similar like how in Star Wars a Millennium Falcon is pulled in and placed to hangar.

Transfer Complete! In the Hornet. Words I never thought I'd hear, but I did cheat and used auto pilot.

Just wondering now if this could be implemented for other planes eg the Tomcat, maybe activated by contacting the tanker. But I suspect this would have to be done module by module.

But I suspect this would have to be done module by module.

Depending only on how it's done. I wouldn't mind a simplistic approach that would include all modules, for the sake of accessibility.

I don't think it could be said as "autopilot" that would be in the module itself. As this would be directly in the tanker in itself. So module developers don't need to touch their codes.

When I called it autopilot, I meant its how it would appear to work for the pilot, regardless of how its implemented. And about that, I wouldnt assume this can be done without module support. you would basically need to suspend the plane's flight model and probably the flight control systems in the avionics to prevent any fly by wire and other systems from getting a heart attack. May or may not be possible, I have non clue.

Anyway, it would be neat to have, but it ends up solving a minor problem for 3 people (who need to AAR but cant), and I would still prefer to have some visual helpers that guide us so we can learn, which probably applies to a lot more people, and may be easier to implement.

Particularly for planes with offset probes and poor cockpit visibility like the F14 where you basically have to guess where the probe is and how you must position yourself in relation to the tanker. Just some "flying boxes" or a projected runway in the sky where to point our nose would be a massive help. Or an even simpler cheat, render the tanker and basket (outline) visibly even if its behind the the canopy pillar whatever you call it. Or maybe "shoot a laser beam" from the basket so even when the basket is hidden you still have a reference, though Im not entirely sure how helpful that would be. Wait, not a laser beam, because you cant judge distance to a line, but also flying boxes. You know like in the carrier landing tutorials

One last suggestion; auto connect the basket if its within x meter and just make the fuel line unrealistically long/flexible. Wouldnt really work with booms though at least not visually.

When the probe is offset: can't you move your head laterally outside of the cockpit with 'camera views' or something so that it is aligned with the probe? And maybe display the infobar if you need it. I mean for training purposes only, of course, if that helps.

I would also prefer visual and/or auditory aids for AAR, especially under the form of a ccomplete training mission (not just instant action) rather than a 'cheat' but I get the point of the casual players.

When the probe is offset: can't you move your head laterally outside of the cockpit with 'camera views' or something so that it is aligned with the probe? .

Well, Im an RC model pilot, so i have a bit of experience with flying third person, but doing AAR with an external camera? That is something I dont even dream of ever accomplishing.

edit: maybe Im discounting this too quickly. Moving the viewpoint to the probe may actually help. Not even sure you can though.. Ill give it a try tonight.

And maybe display the infobar if you need it. I mean for training purposes only, of course, if that helps.

Yep, and its a big help, Again particularly in the tomcat with its useless airspeed indicator located somewhere between your feet.

Any tutorial or helper makes sense only for a pre-contact part. From there it's only your hands - steady precision training - constant small corrections. If you could fly exactly trough the laser line or tiny boxes at 300kts you wouldn't need it anyway and could AAR no problem.

@Vertigo: You don't need any speed indication during AAR - you just fly formation. And btw, F-14 airspeed indicator is super fine, so is the view before connection. Compare with Harrier, Viper or Eagle.

If you could fly exactly trough the laser line or tiny boxes at 300kts you wouldn't need it anyway and could AAR no problem.

I disagree.Those boxes would be visible even when most of the tanker and all of the probe are not. They also give a MUCH better indication if you are drifting in any particular direction and how quickly rather than judging that based on a (barely visible) tanker you are looking at from a somewhat arbitrary angle

Of course, you still need the skill to fly the plane where you want, but knowing where exactly that is would be a massive help. To make it more concrete, for me the biggest problem doing AAR in the tomcat is lateral position. Judging height is relatively easy as long as you see the basked and speed is doable. But I tend to miss it horizontally because that offset throws me off.

Any tutorial or helper makes sense only for a pre-contact part. From there it's only your hands - steady precision training - constant small corrections. If you could fly exactly trough the laser line or tiny boxes at 300kts you wouldn't need it anyway and could AAR no problem.

True. Although I remember when I tried to learn AAr in the FC3 Eagle long ago (gave up - no problem with the hornet or the tomcat though) I could never remember what the guiding lights on the belly of the tanker meant. A training mission where a voice tells you 'a bit higher', 'a bit forward' and so on would have helped. Jester kinda does it in the Tomcat...

And learnng the precontact procedure while playng is always more fun than watching a tutorial or reading a manual... Oh shit now all these memories of Jane's USAF are coming back...

True. Although I remember when I tried to learn AAr in the FC3 Eagle long ago (gave up - no problem with the hornet or the tomcat though) I could never remember what the guiding lights on the belly of the tanker meant. A training mission where a voice tells you 'a bit higher', 'a bit forward' and so on would have helped. Jester kinda does it in the Tomcat...

That wouldn't make sense - it'd have to be constant voice corrections. That makes it too slow for reaction time while it has to be fast subconscious muscle reactions. Jester says "Trust the force" and I concur - you want the targeting thingy while what is really needed is how Luke did this eventually.

Pre-contact tutorial is a good idea. It's rare to see in the AAR tutorial videos how to find and approach the tanker ...and what to do after.

@Vertigo: when you line up and slowly closing to the basket see how big it is (and remember the image) when passing behind the right front canopy rail.

@Falby: Congratulations! I know the feeling :thumbup: