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Guess what! Easy AAR!


Gregkar

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No.

That's a common fallacy that has infested every sim ever. “Real” is not the same as “difficult”. There's an entire concept of “fake difficulty” to highlight what a silly notion it is: I could set up a situation that is wholly unrealistic and wholly impossible. If “easy street” and “realism” were polar opposites, it would be impossible for me to make it more realistic by dialling down the impossibility even though the thing that makes it unrealistic is how it is set up to be impossible. The supposed contradiction falls apart at even the slightest shred of closer examination because of how stupidly weak it is.

 

In fact, one of the biggest hurdles in any simulation is to provide the ease with which some tasks are done because real life provides all kinds of extra information and cues that help the real person do something, but which are really difficult to convey in a simulation. Increased realism would make it easier; its difficulty in the simulation is actually unrealistic.

 

But more to the point, just because there is an “easy street” available doesn't mean that you have sacrificed any realism. You've simply offered a parallel road to travel down. There is no conflict between the two because they simply never cross. With the ability to pick and choose at your leisure, you can indeed have both. Perhaps not always at once (although, as mentioned, “real” can often mean “easier”), but both nevertheless.

 

 

Thank you.

Banned by cunts.

 

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No.

That's a common fallacy that has infested every sim ever. “Real” is not the same as “difficult”. There's an entire concept of “fake difficulty” to highlight what a silly notion it is: I could set up a situation that is wholly unrealistic and wholly impossible. If “easy street” and “realism” were polar opposites, it would be impossible for me to make it more realistic by dialling down the impossibility even though the thing that makes it unrealistic is how it is set up to be impossible. The supposed contradiction falls apart at even the slightest shred of closer examination because of how stupidly weak it is.

 

In fact, one of the biggest hurdles in any simulation is to provide the ease with which some tasks are done because real life provides all kinds of extra information and cues that help the real person do something, but which are really difficult to convey in a simulation. Increased realism would make it easier; its difficulty in the simulation is actually unrealistic.

 

But more to the point, just because there is an “easy street” available doesn't mean that you have sacrificed any realism. You've simply offered a parallel road to travel down. There is no conflict between the two because they simply never cross. With the ability to pick and choose at your leisure, you can indeed have both. Perhaps not always at once (although, as mentioned, “real” can often mean “easier”), but both nevertheless.

 

 

Best post ever in this thread, thank you :thumbup:

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If you can drive a car or ride a bicycle, you can do AAR. Admittedly it’s like trying to do those tasks with vision of a PC screen as your only sensory feedback, but the techniques are the same. Once you get that is when it becomes easy.

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I'd like to see a car that pitches, rolls and has no brake pads...

Notice how when you’re driving you can keep formation with the car in front of you. How? Your foot on the accelerator is tapping on and off, subconsciously, you aren’t holding the pedal down all the time or releasing it. You’re so practiced at this you don’t even notice. The throttle in the plane is the same. You walk it back and forward with small inputs. There’s a lag between that input and your speed just like the car. Once you get a feel for this you know how much input to give.

 

The “bicycle” analogy is how you’re balancing. With small opposite inputs that predict the plane’s reaction. You aren’t reacting to what you see on the screen but predicting it. By the time you see the reaction to your input it’s too late and you’ll get out of phase and oscillate. With small motions just like bicycle handlebars you’ll keep balance. If for example, you pitch up, pitch down immediately after to counter that motion before it develops too far.

 

Put those two things together and you got it. Realize every control affects another so if you pitch up you’ll slow down and if you speed up you’ll climb, just be ready for that reaction.

And don’t look at the boom or basket! Fly formation off the tanker.

 

The last time I did AAR was three years ago here but it’s like riding a bicycle. It only took me maybe an hour of practice to refresh myself on the Hornet.

 


Edited by SharpeXB

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So basically, what DCS needs is some kind of training wheels for AAR, or maybe even someone to run behind the aircraft and keep the balance for you and to keep you going at the speed where the physics of the bike movement help you keep that balance…

 

 

That bike analogy is a very good argument in favour of all kinds of AAR helper systems.

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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Good analogy. However, I won't go into what happened to me when I was 5 and my older brother was the one running behind me holding on to the back fender. Hopefully the developers would provide much better helpers.

 

Learning AAR is like riding a bike is exactly what I wanted to know. The question now is - does learning AAR carry over to other planes? I have managed to refuel with AAR with the F/A-18c though I still need more practice. I immediately went over to the AV-8B and tried it. It was like starting over from square one. After a couple of days of about 1/2 to 1 hour per day things have not gotten much better. My other planes are air force which means a boom and not drogue and basket. I do recognize that the Harrier seems more "unstable" than the Hornet. Please tell me there is not a whole new learning curve for each plane.

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Learning AAR is like riding a bike is exactly what I wanted to know. The question now is - does learning AAR carry over to other planes? I have managed to refuel with AAR with the F/A-18c though I still need more practice. I immediately went over to the AV-8B and tried it. It was like starting over from square one. After a couple of days of about 1/2 to 1 hour per day things have not gotten much better. My other planes are air force which means a boom and not drogue and basket. I do recognize that the Harrier seems more "unstable" than the Hornet. Please tell me there is not a whole new learning curve for each plane.

You have to get used to each plane's handling at AAR speeds, as well as the visual cues in you need to look for in the cockpit in order to keep a correct position. What transfers over is the skill to fly formation, mostly. After doing AAR only in the Hornet for the better part of a year, I flew the F-16 and managed to get hooked up and fill my tanks on my first try, simply because I was used to the concept of formation flying (counter your changes, keep calm, make tiny corrections, one axis at a time).

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Learning AAR is like riding a bike is exactly what I wanted to know. The question now is - does learning AAR carry over to other planes?

For myself the answer is yes, it’s a transferable skill because the basics are the same. And the “riding a bike” analogy meaning you don’t forget the muscle memory is the case here. I hadn’t done this in three years and was able to pick it back up again in a few sessions, really under an hour of practice.

Every aircraft has its quirks and the difference between the boom and basket seems like a difference but it shouldn’t affect the basics.

The boom is easier to connect to since the operator makes the connection. It’s harder to stay connected because you have to keep station more exactly. But keeping the basics in mind that’s not hard.

The basket tricks you into trying to fly into it and yes to a certain extent you do have to connect yourself as it won’t connect to you like the boom. But don’t look at it! That’s what killed me at first, it tricks you into trying to chase it with your nose which is a huge mistake! Just fly formation off the tanker and keep the whole picture in focus. The fact that I’m off center compared to the A-10 is different, the Hog presents a nice symmetrical sight picture of the tanker to keep aligned with. Trying to look at the fuselage of the tanker when in the Hornet led me to subconsciously drift over to it. Like your plane will go where your eyes go. It’s better of course to focus on the pod on the wing for your cues. Staying connected with the drogue is much easier and it’s possible get a bit sloppy so I watch out for that.

The trim controls are different between aircraft. In a plane like the A-10 you need to trim behind the tanker but the Hornet trims automatically. In either case before approaching, be stable and trim on station first, when you press the F1 key you should be matching the speed and stable.

The throttle response is a but different and that takes getting attuned to as well.

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No.

That's a common fallacy that has infested every sim ever. “Real” is not the same as “difficult”. There's an entire concept of “fake difficulty” to highlight what a silly notion it is: I could set up a situation that is wholly unrealistic and wholly impossible. If “easy street” and “realism” were polar opposites, it would be impossible for me to make it more realistic by dialling down the impossibility even though the thing that makes it unrealistic is how it is set up to be impossible. The supposed contradiction falls apart at even the slightest shred of closer examination because of how stupidly weak it is.

 

In fact, one of the biggest hurdles in any simulation is to provide the ease with which some tasks are done because real life provides all kinds of extra information and cues that help the real person do something, but which are really difficult to convey in a simulation. Increased realism would make it easier; its difficulty in the simulation is actually unrealistic.

 

But more to the point, just because there is an “easy street” available doesn't mean that you have sacrificed any realism. You've simply offered a parallel road to travel down. There is no conflict between the two because they simply never cross. With the ability to pick and choose at your leisure, you can indeed have both. Perhaps not always at once (although, as mentioned, “real” can often mean “easier”), but both nevertheless.

You are under the impression that life is easy. If that makes you feel better to have a convoluted way to look at things. It's still a cheat and still looking for "easy street". I've been in a real life simulator while on active duty, an E-2C! It was not easy! Do you think they add in cheats so that the real pilots have it easier? But I guess that's a contradiction too!

 

Not very manly to want things easy bro.

 

Yes this is a game and I get it! But the core argument is funny and sad at the same time! A parallel road? I think you mean parallel universe. Because that's not reality my friend!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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Please tell me there is not a whole new learning curve for each plane.

 

The bike analogy is indeed better than the car analogy because of the muscle memory/proprioception needed to maintain balance.

 

With regards to transfer between planes, my experience was (for what it's worth): I started with the hornet and it took me "only" a few hours (maybe around ten). Then I went to the tomcat and it was significantly more difficult (I believe the probe is even more offset; the speed and the pitch trim also gave me a hard time). Easily ten, maybe twenty, more hours before I could do it with a tanker that does not turn. Now I can do it with the S3 while it turns but I would never call it easy. And last week I tried in the A-10A and it worked after about one hour. The A-10 might be a good starting point. The hatch is centered and it's not behind you like in the Viper or the Eagle. The A10-A might be easier than the A10-c, depending on how sophisticated the FM is on the latter, I don't know.

 

I do believe that with some training helpers I'd have saved hours.

And I would never have succeeded if I hadn't watched tutorials on youtube for each plane.

 

I also know some very smart people who cannot ride a bike.

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Do you think they add in cheats so that the real pilots have it easier?

Yeah we already have “Easy AAR”

We can’t collide with the boom or suck the drogue into an engine. In real life if you screw this up you could end up as a POW or dead. I’m sitting in a comfy office chair with a Starbucks and not exhausted after a real long combat mission. This is game for us and not a career blunder with any real life consequences.

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You are under the impression that life is easy.

No.

That's just you lacking anything even remotely resembling an actual argument and instead throwing every fallacy in the book into the bucket to try — and catastrophically fail — to compensate for that debilitating shortcoming.

 

It's still a cheat and still looking for "easy street".
Doesn't matter. It is still a learning tool; it still improves the game. The game already features this, as do pretty much all simulators of any quality.

 

Appeal to authority; strawmen; ad hominem; appeal to incredulity. None of those strategies you tried to shove in there actually addresses any of the points I made, so I can only conclude that you can't actually think of a coherent reason why these improvements should not be made.

 

But the core argument is funny and sad at the same time! A parallel road? I think you mean parallel universe. Because that's not reality my friend!
No. It's a simulation.

Your inability to actually argue against the “funny and sad” reality of the matter doesn't change any of this. You can pick and choose. You can take one road or the other. Neither affect each other. That's just a fact. Try arguing against that fact rather than whatever it was you were trying to do with your post because, whatever it was, it didn't work.

 

We can’t collide with the boom.

Again, you can brain yourself just fine on the boom. It's funny how so many people are so unfamiliar with AAR in DCS that they don't know this…

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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I refuel using auto-pilot in the Hornet, it's a "cheat", so what! It makes no difference to how other people play does it? To those people who may not like the way I play you have 2 options, just accept it or find somewhere else to fly. I don't care either way and I'm not going anywhere! I bought the module so I'll fly it anyway I want!

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No.

That's just you lacking anything even remotely resembling an actual argument and instead throwing every fallacy in the book into the bucket to try — and catastrophically fail — to compensate for that debilitating shortcoming.

 

Doesn't matter. It is still a learning tool; it still improves the game. The game already features this, as do pretty much all simulators of any quality.

 

Appeal to authority; strawmen; ad hominem; appeal to incredulity. None of those strategies you tried to shove in there actually addresses any of the points I made, so I can only conclude that you can't actually think of a coherent reason why these improvements should not be made.

 

No. It's a simulation.

Your inability to actually argue against the “funny and sad” reality of the matter doesn't change any of this. You can pick and choose. You can take one road or the other. Neither affect each other. That's just a fact. Try arguing against that fact rather than whatever it was you were trying to do with your post because, whatever it was, it didn't work.

 

 

Again, you can brain yourself just fine on the boom. It's funny how so many people are so unfamiliar with AAR in DCS that they don't know this…

And there it is! It is just a game! You think you are very smart when in fact, you just proved my point. It seems as if you don't really live in reality.

 

You want it to be one way! Your way! There's black and white! Opposite ends. Either do it or don't! Pick one!

 

Use all the big words you want. Sounds childish if anything! Like someone said, we already have easy AAR!

 

If you are in fact an adolescent, I apologize. But if you are an adult then you should be capable of knowing the difference. Learning tool! Crash, then start over! RTM! Check out the plethora of tutorials. But don't come with that weak argument of it is but isn't!

 

And I don't need my post to work! I'm not trying to win an argument. But I stand by what I said. I've put my nuts on the line for what I believe in IRL. Have you? Have you been in a real sim?

 

Reality and this game are two separate things bro.

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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Can you collide with the boom now? Like I said above I hadn’t AARd for three years, it’s a great skill but the Hog can fly forever so I don’t end up using it.

The M-2000C either, it has a big drop tank. Now the Hornet yeah you can suck all your fuel away big time. So, good, I finally get to actually use this :thumbup:

 

Oh and the wake turbulence is awesome!

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And there it is! It is just a game!

Correct.

 

You want it to be one way! Your way! There's black and white! Opposite ends. Either do it or don't! Pick one!
You're confusing me for you. I want it both ways; you apparently do not. I have explained how you can create all kinds of interesting shades because I understand that there are myriads of ways to engage with this game — what works for me might not work for others, but that's fine because I can mix and match what I like and they can mix and match what the like. There's no conflict; no black-and-white distinction; no opposition between these different routes one could choose to take.

 

Just because you only want one way to exist doesn't mean that others do not or that there are only two irreconcilable options to forever side with.

 

Check out the plethora of tutorials.
…and those tutorials could be vastly improved with more learning tools, similar to what has been implemented for the other parts of the game.

 

I'm not trying to win an argument.
Well good. That settles it, then. You have nothing to really object to, and only have abuse to try to bolster your lack of a point. We already knew you were not trying to win an argument by the fact that you chose to instantly lose; to not actually offer any argument of your own; to only be pointlessly hostile.

 

Reality and this game are two separate things bro.
That's a very good argument in favour of implementing all kinds of helpers to improve learning in all aspects of the game. It lets us do things that wouldn't be possible in reality, and we can take advantage of this fact to make things easier to learn or to just be entertaining for its own sake — this is pretty much the point of all simulations.

 

Can you collide with the boom now?

For quite some time. It was ages ago that it happened so I have no idea when it became possible.

I just know that it was the end result of my first successful hookup. Well… successful in the sense that I was hooked up to the tanker, and stayed hooked up for a good 5 minutes. Less successful in the sense that the part that was hooked up wasn't the receptacle but the cockpit glass (and pilot head) and apparently, since the tanker AI isn't exactly realistic, it was close enough to a good position that the boom operator just kept it there. :D

 

You know that thing they keep saying about not staring at the boom…


Edited by Tippis

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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Just for the record, at no time have I actually asked for it. I admitted in an early post that I would use it, I actually stated in a later post when I realised I could use auto-pilot that I wouldn't use it even if it was introduced. But unlike a lot of people here I do have have consideration for other people.

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  • ED Team

Hi all

 

please remember the forum rules before posting, and above all, just be nice to each other.

 

This thread has nearly run it course, let see if we can keep it on topic.

 

Thank you

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Correct.

 

You're confusing me for you. I want it both ways; you apparently do not. I have explained how you can create all kinds of interesting shades because I understand that there are myriads of ways to engage with this game — what works for me might not work for others, but that's fine because I can mix and match what I like and they can mix and match what the like. There's no conflict; no black-and-white distinction; no opposition between these different routes one could choose to take.

 

Just because you only want one way to exist doesn't mean that others do not or that there are only two irreconcilable options to forever side with.

 

…and those tutorials could be vastly improved with more learning tools, similar to what has been implemented for the other parts of the game.

 

Well good. That settles it, then. You have nothing to really object to, and only have abuse to try to bolster your lack of a point. We already knew you were not trying to win an argument by the fact that you chose to instantly lose; to not actually offer any argument of your own; to only be pointlessly hostile.

 

That's a very good argument in favour of implementing all kinds of helpers to improve learning in all aspects of the game. It lets us do things that wouldn't be possible in reality, and we can take advantage of this fact to make things easier to learn or to just be entertaining for its own sake — this is pretty much the point of all simulations.

 

 

For quite some time. It was ages ago that it happened so I have no idea when it became possible.

I just know that it was the end result of my first successful hookup. Well… successful in the sense that I was hooked up to the tanker, and stayed hooked up for a good 5 minutes. Less successful in the sense that the part that was hooked up wasn't the receptacle but the cockpit glass (and pilot head) and apparently, since the tanker AI isn't exactly realistic, it was close enough to a good position that the boom operator just kept it there. :D

 

You know that thing they keep saying about not staring at the boom…

Again, you missed the point entirely, like so many others! Do as you please, no ones stopping you. I guess I like a challenge as opposed to the easy way!

 

Cheat away!

 

And since you are good at dissecting what I said and failed, focus!I don't care about cheats and handicaps. I don't control you or anyone else as you eluded to.

 

You said I object. Let me be clear, I do not! I just think it's a weak and very lame way of doing things. But if it makes you feel better at night, then so be it. How does it feel to know everyone else climbed the wall, and you ran around it?

 

Yes, this has run it's course. I'm out! If you felt any of this was hostile, then you have a lot to learn because that was nothing! It actually made me laugh that you would even use the word!

 

Now I see who I'm dealing with here. All I needed to know!

 

Peace bro

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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I know it has been asked before but ED told me to reopen a new thread. I think we REALLY need an easy AAR option. It is easily the hardest part of DCS.

 

To those who will start raging: "This is a simulator!! not a game!!" i say: ask ED to remove easy comms, arcade flight model, active pause, immortal cheat, start airplane cheat, unlimited fuel, unlimited ammo, hide stick, auto align a/c to catapult etc...

 

 

Yes we need an easy AAR option. Because actual state is easy one. If you uncheck it, it will add the wake turbulence disturbance to the boom.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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You said I object. Let me be clear, I do not!

Let's actually be clear: you're setting up a false dichotomy to try to disparage an improvement to the game.

 

You objected vehemently, aggressively, and abusively, to having it be demonstrated to you what made this a false dichotomy. You had no way of actually backing your view up or addressing the points being made, and even admitted as much, and instead just doubled down on the very fallacies that proved how weak your stance was.

 

I don't care about cheats and handicaps.
This is very clearly not the case. Just look at how you reacted to the suggestion that some be implemented and to the explanation of how it would not only be in line with the kind of learning tools that already exist within the game, but also would improve the game in a number of critical ways with no real downsides. Read your own posts and the tone and stance you chose to use in them.

 

Now I see who I'm dealing with here.
Someone with an actual argument and who you therefore lost to, immediately.

 

Next time, try having something relevant to say; try engaging with the points being made; try having an actual real argument of your own.


Edited by Tippis

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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