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Guess what! Easy AAR!


Gregkar

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Well, to me it seems like most people don't want to invest the time necessary to learn it because it isn't a "flashy" skill. Those guys will put in the time to learn how to use every weapon, but when it comes to anything else - nope.

So what?

If that's how they choose to use the options, who cares? Their decision to use them that way is not a good reason not to implement more learning tools.

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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For a lot of ppl it's not about time spent trying. Over the last 2 or 3 months around 75% of my time flying has been trying AAR in both F-14 and F-18. Results zero AAR in F-14 and around 50 in F-18. Reason why I can do it in F-18 is I cheat by using auto-pilot controlling with just trim. As long as I don't move the stick I'm able to refuel consistently. The reason for this is I shake irl. I can't carry a coffee without spilling it if it's full. So please don't tell me it's because I don't spend enough time trying. I've even ordered a new hotas to see if it'll help. It does frustrate me so much that I can't do it I've stopped flying my F-14 now and also means I probably not buy any other planes that need AAR.

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A good software company (in this modern age) should provide features that can accommodate all range of customers. There is no reason not to if they really want to broaden the appeal to more potential buyers such as casual simmers. After all this is just a game and 99.9% of us here play for entertainment, not training to become an ace combat pilot in real life.

 

AAR took me months to learn, and I believe that learning experience could definitely have been improved and simplified by having a more focused tutorial mission as well as adjustable realism (fully automated, semi-automated, no-assist if you will) so people could take it step by step at a time. It would basically be the same thing as autostart, an option for people who want to use it.

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I believe that learning experience could definitely have been improved and simplified by having a more focused tutorial mission as well as adjustable realism (fully automated, semi-automated, no-assist if you will) so people could take it step by step at a time.

I don’t think there is any way to create adjustable assistance for this and it would just screw you up trying to learn as you continued to fiddle with it.

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So what?

If that's how they choose to use the options, who cares? Their decision to use them that way is not a good reason not to implement more learning tools.

 

Because creating those systems is wasting precious development time. Time spent on those is time not spent on more important things (I can name a few AAR improvements that are way more important)

 

I'm an amputee. Am I supposed to ask ED for an "easy rudder mode" so I could fly helos / ww2 birds easily?


Edited by BarTzi
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I don’t think there is any way to create adjustable assistance for this and it would just screw you up trying to learn as you continued to fiddle with it.

 

Oh yes there is, if there's a will there is a way. MSFS2020, for example, AI can take certain control during tutorials. If ED can program AI planes to do AAR then it can be done.

 

For AAR, you need to constantly fiddle with both throttle and joystick control which can be quite difficult. One option to help new players is to have various settings such as automated throttle or joystick control so newcomers can click and choose what to practice and only have to focus on one device at a time. Then once you get better at one thing then you can start disabling AI control options one by one.

 

If I can think of this, the programmers can think of 10 other ways to make it happen. It is doable and it is there in other games, the question is whether ED will offer it or not. Just because a feature is being despised by some doesn't mean that others will not love it.


Edited by Supmua

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

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Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

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Oh yes there is, if there's a will there is a way. MSFS2020, for example, AI can take certain control during tutorials. If ED can program AI planes to do AAR then it can be done.

 

For AAR, you need to constantly fiddle with both throttle and joystick control which can be quite difficult. One option to help new players is to have various settings such as automated throttle or joystick control so newcomers can click and choose what to practice and only have to focus on one device at a time. Then once you get better at one thing then you can start disabling AI control options one by one.

 

If I can think of this, the programmers can think of 10 other ways to make it happen. It is doable and it is there in other games, the question is whether ED will offer it or not. Just because a feature is being despised by some doesn't mean that others will not love it.

See you’re already making this feature too complicated. The most I could ever see ED doing is you get behind the tanker, press a key, and the AI takes over and refuels your plane. Anything beyond that like variable help settings is too complex. All the 3rd parties would get saddled with incorporating this when they already have way too much work to do even finishing modules. And there’s nothing in the DCS engine that has AI taking over flying your plane so that doesn’t even exist in DCS. That would have to be created and that’s too much if you ask me. There’s so much more for them to work on that’s more important.

So. No... just take unlimited fuel with you if you can’t figure out AAR.

 

I’ve got 21 hours total in the F/A-18C and maybe an hour total practice in AAR and I can already contact the basket and stay on for a bit. I still need more practice obviously but it’s not impossible.

 

And again to explain why this feature isn’t necessary. Normal missions don’t require AAR. With a single external tank on the F-18 I have enough range to fly diagonally across the entire PG map, 800 miles. Now that’s cruising speed and combat would reduce that but most any normal mission isn’t going to require you to AAR. I can do the Red Flag missions which are quite long in the gas guzzling F-15 and M-2000C, I need to keep an eye on fuel but I won’t run out.

Watch your airspeed and burner use and you won’t run dry. So I have a hard time understanding why players with limited time for DCS are flying missions for that long.


Edited by SharpeXB

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just take unlimited fuel with you if you can’t figure out AAR.

 

You all keep talking about fuel management and unlimited fuel but what If I play multiplayer in a group? I can't take unlimited fuel and I can't plan fuel usage perfectly as I can't predict what will happen.

I like anime girls, planes and planes with anime girls painted on them.

Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics should take after Anaheim Electronics and sell brand new prototypes to mentally unstable civilians.

Looking for any sign of intelligence on this forum.

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The message 2 above hit on some of the basic points being brought up so I would like to address them in turn. The message above also has a good point.

 

What you are describing was how I remember the Jane's F/A-18E software handled easy AAR which came out in 1999. Get close to the refueling plane, push a button and AI takes over. You watched your plane hookup and get fuel and then break away releasing control back to the pilot.

 

I can't argue your point about priorities. F-16 needs mavericks, harms, etc. An Apache helicopter and F-15E Strike Eagle with fully functional cockpit would be a sure buy for me. And that is just the beginning.

 

It has been discussed whether unlimited fuel is a worthy substitute. For some the answer is no. Some pilots want the experience of having to watch their fuel and have enough to get to the refueler, use the TACAN to find the refueler, communicate with the refueler but as yet can't hook up and/or stay with the refueler to refuel.

 

An hour of practice and you are already hooking up to the basket for short periods of time is remarkable. This is well beyond what many of us are experiencing and as for me I am quite certain the hours of practice are in the double digits. That being said - about 10 pages ago I got some good suggestions and I too am hooking up for short periods of time. Very exhilarating even at my age. I am almost glad there is no easy AAR forcing me to learn AAR. (But then I am retired with no children and very independent wife.) AAR may become my favorite part of the mission.

 

I find that I need to refuel on a significant number of missions. Certainly the design of the Harrier makes it a must. But even the F/A-18c only has so many hardpoints. (Another priority would be the F/A-18E with more.) And I always seem to end up in the wrong place and have to dodge missiles which may mean afterburners which consumes fuel. Of course this may be indicative of poor mission planning and execution.

 

I am curious about something and perhaps it is a mistake to ask because using it may induce some bad habits. I keep hearing how some pilots are using trim and autopilot to help them hook up to the basket. Would some one explain how this is done.

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You all keep talking about fuel management and unlimited fuel but what If I play multiplayer in a group? I can't take unlimited fuel and I can't plan fuel usage perfectly as I can't predict what will happen.

Multiplayer would probably have game aids shut off anyways. If you really want to get fuel management then don’t count on AAR. If you don’t fly at full throttle constantly you’ve got enough endurance for most any game session. Some aircraft have performance info available onboard, the F-18 does. You can tell exactly your range and endurance.

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Why is your group forcing tasks which some of their members are unable or unwilling to perform?

 

Did I ever said that they force us? On my last mission, one flight was supposed to switch with my flight after 2 hours but they never showed up so we had to aar and wait till next flight would switch us. This was never meant to be a mission with aar but things happen.


Edited by Varioss

I like anime girls, planes and planes with anime girls painted on them.

Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics should take after Anaheim Electronics and sell brand new prototypes to mentally unstable civilians.

Looking for any sign of intelligence on this forum.

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Did I ever said that they force us? On my last mission, one flight was supposed to switch with my flight after 2 hours but they never showed up so we had to aar and wait till next flight would switch us. This was never meant to be a mission with aar but things happen.

So you either AAR or RTB, what's the big deal?

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I am curious about something and perhaps it is a mistake to ask because using it may induce some bad habits. I keep hearing how some pilots are using trim and autopilot to help them hook up to the basket. Would some one explain how this is done.

 

If you just try to freehand it, you're going to have a rough time. The easiest way (ie way you should be doing it) is to fly up behind the tanker, just off the basket/probe. Stabilise NOW, using trim, so you can fly in formation (which is all AAR really is) handsfree. Now that you're not fighting you're own aircraft and stable, you can just make minor corrections. The autopilot referred to would be along the lines of a roll/attitude hold, so once you GET hooked up, if you are stable even a few moments, BAM activate autopilot and then sit back and relax.

 

99% of the time, the reason people struggle is because they are trying to freehand it and/or trim AFTER hookup. You should be stabilised before you ever touch the basket or probe.

 

It's not a ''bad habit/practice'' btw. That's literally how you're supposed to do it. Work smarter, not harder. Using trim is never wrong. Flying in a straight line is what it's for.


Edited by zhukov032186

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It's not a ''bad habit/practice'' btw. That's literally how you're supposed to do it. Work smarter, not harder.

Why isn't it used in the real world then? Seems to me engaging an autopilot while in tight formation with another aircraft is a really really REALLY bad idea.

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Why isn't it used in the real world then? Seems to me engaging an autopilot while in tight formation with another aircraft is a really really REALLY bad idea.

I don’t know about IRL but yeah that seems like a very bad idea. The A-10C autopilot deactivates when you open the refueling door.

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Why isn't it used in the real world then? Seems to me engaging an autopilot while in tight formation with another aircraft is a really really REALLY bad idea.

 

I spoke extensively about trimming, which is what I was referring to. I 100% guarantee they are using trim, because to not would be absolutely stupid.

 

As for autopilot, he said people mentioned using it. I explained the context. Whether that is ''realisitic'' or not is beside the point, and I did not address that. Taxiway takeoffs are also not safe and not done in real life, but are ingame.

 

I believe the Harrier manual mentions AFC must be disengaged prior to hookup, but it says you can use it AFTER connection. I don't have it handy so cannot verify, but I remember it as being optional.

 

I also don't see how autopilot would necessarily be that big a deal. Roll and attitude stability in this context should be fine, leaving you to manipulate the throttle. It doesn't mean ''take a nap'' it means ''you don't have to actuate the controls now''. In the Harrier, baro hold and roll hold would literally let you AAR hands free, though I've never done it myself.


Edited by zhukov032186

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An hour of practice and you are already hooking up to the basket for short periods of time is remarkable.

I already went through a lot of practice, maybe a week, in the A-10C. The skill is quite transferable. Just getting the feel for a different plane. Plus the drouge.

 

Ok after four sessions and really not even an hour I got it in the Hornet :pilotfly:

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Because creating those systems is wasting precious development time. Time spent on those is time not spent on more important things (I can name a few AAR improvements that are way more important)

 

I'm an amputee. Am I supposed to ask ED for an "easy rudder mode" so I could fly helos / ww2 birds easily?

That was an unfortunate exampled you picked. :D

ED has “wasted time” on an easy rudder mode for helos and ww2 birds already so you don't have to ask for it. They've done so because it's not actually a waste of time to cater to different capabilities — be they physical or just down to gaming equipment — of the player base. And improving your product is not a waste of time — it's just a matter of priorities.

 

So those aren't arguments against doing it. They might be arguments against implementing them right now, but as mentioned, they are consistently “wasting their time” implementing exactly these kinds of things for other modules (SC being the latest example). You're quite right that there are other AAR improvements that could be made, but here's the funny thing about that: most AAR improvements that desperately need to be made right now would also make it a lot easier. There's a lot of artificiality to how difficult it is at the moment that a bit more realism would take away.


Edited by Tippis

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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That was an unfortunate exampled you picked. :D

ED has “wasted time” on an easy rudder mode for helos and ww2 birds already so you don't have to ask for it. They've done so because it's not actually a waste of time to cater to different capabilities — be they physical or just down to gaming equipment — of the player base. And improving your product is not a waste of time — it's just a matter of priorities.

 

So those aren't arguments against doing it. They might be arguments against implementing them right now, but as mentioned, they are consistently “wasting their time” implementing exactly these kinds of things for other modules (SC being the latest example). You're quite right that there are other AAR improvements that could be made, but here's the funny thing about that: most AAR improvements that desperately need to be made right now would also make it a lot easier. There's a lot of artificiality to how difficult it is at the moment that a bit more realism would take away.

 

Trust me- what I asked for doesn't exist in the sim, and I know why I picked this example (there isn't a system that simulates the correct rudder input during all phases of flight and combat). Making the game accessible to everyone comes at a cost. I can simply bind the rudder axis to my HOTAS the same way other people can avoid AAR, by flying missions that don't require it.

 

Oh, and no. I don't think of a single AAR improvement (aside from the tanker announcing a turn in advance) that would make it easier. If anything, it's too easy in DCS, and doing it wrong has no real consequence since the drogue/boom has no hitbox.

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Trust me- what I asked for doesn't exist in the sim

What you asked for was an easy rudder mode. This does indeed exist in the form of various form of rudder helpers for aircraft that would otherwise be highly reliant on rudder (or anti-torque) input. Now, granted, depending on how used you are to actually providing that input yourself, it may end up not actually making things easier, but that's just how it goes with how many of DCS' helper systems work. Compare the “game modes” that actually make the game harder than it otherwise would be. :lol:

 

Oh, and no. I don't think of a single AAR improvement (aside from the tanker announcing a turn in advance) that would make it easier. If anything, it's too easy in DCS, and doing it wrong has no real consequence since the drogue/boom has no hitbox.

You can brain yourself on the boom. Trust me on that one. :D

 

And there are more improvements than that that would make AAR easier. The lack of communication is one thing; the lack of any real flight modelling on AI aircraft is another; the unrealistic airflow around aircraft is yet a third.

 

Making the game accessible to everyone comes at a cost.

And that is a cost well worth paying. That's why they have pretty consistently paid it in spades in relation to just about every other aspect of flying except this one, for some unfathomable reason.

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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Um, they are literally polar opposites bro.

No.

That's a common fallacy that has infested every sim ever. “Real” is not the same as “difficult”. There's an entire concept of “fake difficulty” to highlight what a silly notion it is: I could set up a situation that is wholly unrealistic and wholly impossible. If “easy street” and “realism” were polar opposites, it would be impossible for me to make it more realistic by dialling down the impossibility even though the thing that makes it unrealistic is how it is set up to be impossible. The supposed contradiction falls apart at even the slightest shred of closer examination because of how stupidly weak it is.

 

In fact, one of the biggest hurdles in any simulation is to provide the ease with which some tasks are done because real life provides all kinds of extra information and cues that help the real person do something, but which are really difficult to convey in a simulation. Increased realism would make it easier; its difficulty in the simulation is actually unrealistic.

 

But more to the point, just because there is an “easy street” available doesn't mean that you have sacrificed any realism. You've simply offered a parallel road to travel down. There is no conflict between the two because they simply never cross. With the ability to pick and choose at your leisure, you can indeed have both. Perhaps not always at once (although, as mentioned, “real” can often mean “easier”), but both nevertheless.

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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