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Guess what! Easy AAR!


Gregkar

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So typical. Blame the noob. He didnt read the 1000 pages worth of manuals. He watched the wrong youtube videos, thats even better. Thats really how you get more people in to DCS and its a mindset that will do wonder for sales.

 

Sorry but if a noob goes to do wrong things, then it is blame to him.

 

If a product comes with a manual, and you brake the product by using it opposite how manual says the device is to be used, then it is not the product or manufacturer fault that noob broke the device.

 

Any noob can sign in to the ED Forums, here. And ask advices.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=664

 

It is first places in the forum lists.

 

Not ensuring they can learn and discover things at their own pace in an order that makes sense and allows them to have some fun while they do it.

 

Well, noob who believes that they know how to do things is often to blame themselves, as they have no even knowledge that they should seek help to begin.

 

It doesn't mean that ED couldn't improve a lot of things, but it is not to blame DCS World from things that are requiring too much skill from the beginner.

 

That is the reason of this thread, that air refueling that is in the real world one of the most challenging things one can do, before the carrier landings, the noobs just have often too high expectations from their skills and wants to try things that they are not ready.

 

I see this very very often in real world, because some people are that when they see others are doing something, that they can do the same exact thing. And then accidents happens. This is as well reason why governments has these own laws to protect their citizens so that dangerous devices are not to be sold for a common citizens without permits etc. The access to them is restricted so that they wouldn't harm themselves.

 

But any logic or moral code can't be even expected in countries that sell firearms next to cereals or hide the fact that one is owning an tool that sole purpose is to kill in pretense that "everyone has rights to defend themselves", what is nothing more than asking trouble when peoples expectations for their rights and skills are nothing what they really are.

 

This thread about adding assistance for air refueling is purely to make beginners and players with other limitations (hardware, software, setups, times etc) to learn it, to have access to it and adjust the assistance level when they learn to be better.

 

A few fun facts though about that manual I never read. First of all, on my system its in C:Program Files (x86)SteamsteamappscommonDCSWorldDoc A folder I browse all the time.

 

Well you got the point.

 

But more importantly it explains absolutely nothing that I needed to know. Anything I mentioned above. I did search for tacan, and got zero results.

 

TACAN is for F-14 thing, so you find it in F-14 manual. ED provides manual to the DCS World, but each aircraft has their own proper manuals in their own doc folder.

 

 

C:Program Files (x86)SteamsteamappscommonDCS WorldModsaircraftF14DocsF-14B Manual 1.0.pdf

 

There from Page 14 forward you have information about it.

 

I searched "auto start" and got zero results. But wait, there is another manual, a controller walkthrough manual. Surely its in there? Nope. Its not in the F14 manual either, auto start, zero results. And yeah, its in the list of controls, of course it is, hidden among 546879 other keybindings for a tomcat. You expect noobs to go over literally all of them, to see if there might be something in there, that they do not even know exists - even if they will not understand what 95% of the others do ? And I dont even want auto start. I want a simple start procedure. They way I bet we all start our tomcats. I bet no one here checks their emergency hydraulic pressure !

 

It is in the DCS World itself. You read the manual that explains how you get to your bindings. And you you can rebind something.

The aircraft module goes through different parts of the aircraft cockpit, not the default bindings or like.

 

You are expected to go through the bindings and categories, and then you would find there as well "Auto start" and "Auto shutoff". functions.

 

This is something that is in the GAME MODE very clearly visible.

 

Back to the DCS manual. Does it say anything about hooking up to a carrier? No, it does not. Does it even explain the communication menu how you rearm and refuel? No it does not AFAICT. 382 pages but not how you select your weapons or fuel load. Im sure the silly noob is reading the wrong manuals again!

 

If a noob doesn't know that refueling and rearming is done on ground, when you are parked to airport (so not on some road). And that you have a binding that says:

 

rearming.thumb.jpg.644c2ef6032b8707e7027ea5f8eeae25.jpg

 

Yes, it becomes difficult when one can't connect the dots in the basic level (be landed, turn off your aircraft, have the rearming and refueling menu binded).

 

And yes, the manual talks about game mode, I wasnt and am not interested in game mode. Whatever that is, I dont care.

 

Again back to the problem, too high expectations from ones skills and not ready to go through the various steps in learning....

 

I dont want simplified flight models or weapons, I want to learn, but I want to be able to learn how to start my frigging engines and turn on my MFDs before learning the correct procedure to test my G suit pressure or the pressure of my emergency flight hydraulics and I shouldnt have to read 1000 pages to do something that ultimately can be explained in 2 minutes. Its not hard to start engines! Its frigging impossible to find out how without watching youtube video we shouldnt watch.

 

Again back to the problem, not willing to learn step by step, going through tutorials, guides, reading the manual, understand even a basic idea that a fighter jet that has over 200 buttons and switch, one just can't jump in and start doing things in their own "I want to do this before that!" things.

 

It is exactly like screaming "I want to do air refueling before I know how to fly in formation!"

 

What I have been talking here is about an assistance mode that makes it easier to do air refueling, but not a magical thing that will be so for everyone. It would be available with its various settings only for those who consider that they need it.

It is not taking away something, it is not enforcing something for everyone. It just is there for those who are ready to take steps in learning to become better, not expecting to master something right away.

 

Let me tell you what kind people I talk about.

 

A 11 year old child has been playing violin since age of 6, and she has become very very good for her age. Now her mother who has been dropping and picking her up from music school in the last 5 years gets and idea. They are to have a fancy dinner party for a celebration and she would like to play a violin with her daughter. So mother came to talk to the teacher and explains this, and asks that if she could pay for two or three hours how to learn play violin as well has her daughter, as she is just a 11 year old and not so fast to learn like adults are.....

 

WHAT DO YOU SAY FOR SUCH A PERSON?!?!?

 

That person who has NEVER HOLD AN VIOLIN IN THEIR HANDS THAN CARRYING IT AROUND, would magically become a great violist AFTER TWO HOURS LESSONS?!

 

We are talking here about simulation, a flight simulation. A simulation software that tries to be as accurate as possible for the real aircraft it is modeling. Meaning you need to know A LOT OF THINGS, before you get to even fly solo.

 

In real life a fighter aircraft controls can be given a person who has not gone through any flight training. The flying is not difficult. Everyone learns quickly that pulling stick back will make nose go up, pulling stick to sideways will make aircraft to roll. Trying to keep the aircraft flying steady and straight is fairly easy.

 

But when more complex things are started to be added, it requires new set of mind.

Like you can't keep pulling loops after loops after loops without something bad happening. You can't keep pushing nose down as something bad happens. You can't slow down and stop, as something very bad happens.

 

Anyone can hold an violin and move a stick back and worth over the strings.

But to make it sound something that is wanted, that is completely different thing.

 

If one buys a F-14 and wants to go to just make things go boom and such.... GAME MODE.

If one buys a F-14 and wants to learn how to operate it.... hundreds of hours.....

 

The big difference is that in real world when you enter to flight school, you have a teacher that is holding your hands and everything is gone in steps. The teacher explain things and then tests you that do you understand what you have been explained. And each step advance you further to new things.

 

And there is big difference doing something alone, than someone is next to you seeing what you are doing and telling you what to do.

 

 

 

It would be interesting to see what really happened, how people talked, what were procedures etc. As all the movie dramatizations are just skipping lots of steps and squeezing things together.

 

But maybe you will get the point.

 

When situation changes so that one can't see what others are doing, lots of mistakes can be done. The other who is suppose to follow guides is very easily skipping things or assuming something.

 

The Easy Air to Air Refueling mode wouldn't make one master formation flying. It wouldn't make them magically better instantly. It would still require them to know basics and get better to be able fly in the parameters of the assisted air refueling with its settings.

 

And even that, noob needs to know how the air refueling procedure is suppose to go. How to get the aircraft prepared for that task.

 

And if it requires reading and learning, so be it. That is part of the process. Easy air refueling feature shouldn't be skipping those, it should to help overcome skill or hardware limitations, assist the player to be able do something now and help them to become better in future.

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How about reading the manual

 

Sorry to be harsh but if you can’t change your attitude then DCS is just not for you.

 

How about you read it before scolding my attitude. How about reading what I wrote, and understanding virtually none of the obstacles I encountered, and there are many more than ones I listed, are solved by reading through a total of >1000 pages?

 

The problem is not my attitude, Im fine reading if thats whats it takes, but reading 1000 pages about stuff I have zero interest in yet, and still not finding the basics stuff I need to know, does not make it noob friendly. All you people do is yell "game mode" (not solving my, or frankly, anyone's problem) and RFTM (not solving my problems either).

 

The real problem is not the attitude of noobs, even though Im sure countless potential customers are even far less willing than I am to find the info they need just to get started with the game, but that of a community that claims to be noob friendly, but when someone takes the time to actually describe what its like as a noob and point to a list of issues, rather than seeing opportunities to improve DCS, scolds the noobs for their "attitude".

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If all the time invested in this (imho pretty pointless) discussion/thread, was used in actual DCS AAR training hours, this thread would have been obsolete by now

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That DCS is noob friendly is just a joke, and not a funny one.

 

To give you my personal perspective on that; I have been flying flight sims since i was a little kid,

 

... SNIP ...

 

Noob friendly, my ass!

So what you are saying is, you have good background and theory, feel confident enough to be able to step into a P-51 and get her started up, without reading the manual or doing the start up lesson, faster than 30 minutes. OK. Fair enough. But then for the Tomcat, you were equally surprised! (why?)

"So I went through the built-in training to learn how to start my engines. First thing it says: you should be familiar with the cockpit, please go read that 500 page PDF. *GULP* Until then Ive never ever even read a manual for any sim -ever."
You skipped the cockpit orientation to go to the startup. There is a pattern here. You cannot skimp on learning, there are no shortcuts. You went back later, found lesson 1 it talked about Engine Tests, got bored, because you wanted to quickstart blow stuff up and became unhappy that your expectations were not met.

 

Either you propose DCS should not simulate as much detail to require a manual. Or you suggest that flying an F-14B was so easy a glider pilot should have no problem without even a manual.

 

 

Really?

 

 

I understand that having some background knowledge helps, I have plenty too, but the cold start lesson for every aircraft (except the I-16 that i noticed) is good enough to get me going and failing that even I will open the P-51 manual on page 125 and step through the cold start process.

No need for this:

 

"I would load it and sit there in the cockpit thinking, now what?"

The question is, why is DCS setting this expectation and how should it approach the steep learning curve better? I agree it is likey bewildering to a newcomer, but why does a newcomer expect so much without simple effort like reading manuals?

 

Let's remove DCS from the equation. Is operating a plane supposed to "easy"?

 

If all the simulators were flyable without a manual, would that be a realistic simulator?

 

Laying the blame on DCS for being complex is ridiculous, DCS tries to be as close as possible to what it's simulating. This conversation sometimes forgets that the topic matter is the issue, not the simulation.

 

I don't think anyone here is complaining about possible new features added to the sim, but the main gripe from those that are saying "no" to a cheat system for AAR, is, the concern that the development time gets pulled away from the things this sim really needs... like ATC, AI, weather, MP performance. We have been asking for the fundamental things for a many years now, the long term consumers are terrified we wont get them and the time will be stolen by folks requesting stuff they don't need, wont get used and doesnt add to the sim, who leave it in disgust after spending 30 minutes not reading a manual and complaining it was too hard to use. It shouldn't need a crutch for flying straight and level at the same speed. But sure, a cheat, for those that want it, might be OK, as long as it doesnt detract development from the actual purpose of the simulator. This cheat will not help you get satisfaction from the sim though. It will only serve to remind you what was said in this thread, that if you want to be good at something, you have to put in some effort. If you simply want to drive further in your mission, set unlimited fuel on.

___________________________________________________________________________

SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING *

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To any-one and every-one that I may have offended during the course of this thread please accept my sincere apologies I just get too passionate at times about things I love.

For me I think it's best just to agree to disagree, be friends and get back to what we really love most, flying our favourite planes.

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Any noob can sign in to the ED Forums, here. And ask advices.

 

So in order to figure out how to start your engines, you sign up to a forum and ask :music_whistling: That makes Forth noob friendly too, it has a forum where you can ask advice!

 

TACAN is for F-14 thing, so you find it in F-14 manual. ED provides manual to the DCS World, but each aircraft has their own proper manuals in their own doc folder.

 

i LOVE how you guys keep pointing to the manual without reading it. Nowhere does it provide a simple overview or explanation of what tacan actually is. Its just assumed you know what it is. If you read the entire manual, and you already know what a VOR is, sure, you can sorta read between the lines and figure it out, but lets step back here, I was trying to get my engines going , for the very first time; I wasnt preparing for an IFR navigation flight, I had no expectations of being able to do that, nor in an interest in learning how I should do that yet. I wanted to get airborne.

 

Now I can describe how to start the engines that in what, 5 lines? But you think its fine that a noob instead of having easy access to those 5 lines, has to go through a 20+ minute tutorial that includes a bunch of stuff he really doesnt understand or cares about yet AND that required him to first read 400 pages of on navigation. And if you point that out, you have an attitude problem. :doh:

 

You are expected to go through the bindings and categories, and then you would find there as well "Auto start" and "Auto shutoff". functions.

 

Yeah noob! Before your first flight, you have to go through all the key bindings. Even when you cant possibly know what the vast majority of them does. Its better than reading a manual! But you should do that too of course!

 

This is something that is in the GAME MODE very clearly visible.

 

Keep yelling GAME MODE. and not understanding this solves no one's problem. I dont want game mode. I dont even understand who does. DCS planes arent particularly difficult to fly. Some WW1 planes in Rise of Flight are a lot harder. If you have next to no flying experience and still struggle not crashing without a simplified flight model, then are you really interested in learning all the systems? I find that hard to imagine.

 

Most people coming to DCS can probably fly well enough to cope the flight model. If they dont, Im not sure what attracts them to DCS, and there are probably better sims that allow them to learn to fly without having to read an encyclopedia to get their engine going . What most noobs need help with is learning all the systems. That is where there is a HUGE learning curve.

 

If a noob doesn't know that refueling and rearming is done on ground, when you are parked to airport (so not on some road). And that you have a binding that says:

 

You are joking, right? Its so intuitive.

 

 

Again back to the problem, too high expectations from ones skills and not ready to go through the various steps in learning....

 

Again back to the problem, not willing to learn step by step,

 

Its the complete opposite. I WANTED to learn step by step. Not having to read 200 pages on hydraulics on ILS navigation before I knew how to crank my engine! Not having to browse through 4547 advanced keybindings before I knew how to select my fuel load out. Thats the whole problem, there is no "step by step". You solution is to read the entire frigging book first. And if you are lucky, you might come across that next step somewhere along the way. Or not. your idea of step by step seems to be: step 1: learn everything there is to learn.

 

going through tutorials, guides, reading the manual, understand even a basic idea that a fighter jet that has over 200 buttons and switch, one just can't jump in and start doing things in their own "I want to do this before that!" things.

 

Yeah we all need to learn those 200 buttons and the fine details of controlling the LANTIRN pod before we can understand how to unsweep our wings! Step by step right?

 

Now I could understand if the procedure actually was difficult. But its not. A cold start for a pilot in the tomcat is NOT hard. Its just frustratingly hard to find out how to do it, unless you rely on videos we shouldnt watch.

 

That person who has NEVER HOLD AN VIOLIN IN THEIR HANDS THAN CARRYING IT AROUND, would magically become a great violist AFTER TWO HOURS LESSONS?!

 

i know one thing. I probably would teach my daughter how to hold the violin make some horrible sound come out of that violin before I asked her to study semaphores and read Brahms.

 

Cant be arsed to read and respond to the rest. I bet its more stupid noob you dont deserve to fly dcs bs.


Edited by Vertigo72
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The problem is not my attitude, Im fine reading if thats whats it takes, but reading 1000 pages about stuff I have zero interest in yet

Ok so you have “zero interest” in learning anything. Why do you play DCS then?

You’re just not suited for this unless you change your approach. There’s no point in posting noobish rants on the forum when you clearly aren’t willing to do any work for yourself.

 

Nowhere does it provide a simple overview or explanation of what tacan actually is.

There's this thing today called Google :music_whistling:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_air_navigation_system

 

PS you should realize the definition of Early Access in DCS. It’s very possible that certain things might not be implemented in that module yet. Most of the manuals do a good job of explaining what’s working at this stage and what hasn’t been added yet. If this is confusing for you, stay away from Early Access.


Edited by SharpeXB

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Ok so you have “zero interest” in learning anything.[/url].

 

Oh please. You left out the word "yet" in your quote, and then distorted my words completely, why exactly? because even you understand people need to learn things in steps and not everything at once? Are you trying to have an honest conversation here? clearly not.


Edited by Vertigo72
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Oh please. You left out the word "yet" in your quote, and then distorted my words completely, why exactly? because even you understand people need to learn things in steps and not everything at once? Are you trying to have an honest conversation here? clearly not.

ok corrected, "yet"

Just go through the sections of the manual even if you don't need some things "yet"

You will... There can't be multiple checklists for "New Player" and then another one later.

So for example on the startup checklist, just memorize and do it all. If you don't know what an ILS is, just turn it on. Then learn later what it does.

Hey lots of us when we get older forget how to study like when we were in school. For me just reading passively won't do it. Or it's only part. It takes active learning, like open up the manual, sit in the cockpit and go through everything step by step. If you skip things, you'll end up backtracking. Combine active learning with passive things like watching videos but doing things actively is important. Go back and forth repeatedly. Master one basic thing and then go on to the next.

But you can't expect to just jump into the cockpit, take off and shoot stuff with an hour or so of game time. This just isn't that sort of game.

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Fair enough. But then for the Tomcat, you were equally surprised! (why?)

 

I wasnt one bit surprised I wasnt able to start a tomcat without help, I literally wouldnt haven known where to start.

 

But I was surprised I could barely even follow the instructions, I couldnt even figure out how to press that knob on the master test panel that I couldnt see (and which or course, is completely unnecessary for any introduction training) and I certainly couldnt distill from that training the basic information I actually needed to start up with no help. I could probably have followed that training 10x and Im still not sure i would have been able to do it alone and I couldnt tell what steps where optional and which wherent and frankly, what the heck I was doing..

 

And again, if it really was so hard to start up a tomcat, then so be it. But its not.

 

oh and btw, I dont know if it was a bug or something they improved later, there was no "press space to continue" I had to speed read and memorize it all or keep wondering why that flashing square kept flashing over a button that did who knows what.

 

You skipped the cockpit orientation to go to the startup

 

What cockpit orientation? I literally followed the first "basic" tutorial. There is a video embedded in the manual, but it explains nothing that the manual doesnt, it just names the various panels.

 

Either you propose DCS should not simulate as much detail to require a manual. Or you suggest that flying an F-14B was so easy a glider pilot should have no problem without even a manual.

 

Really?

 

No. Really not.

 

Let me put it this way; here is a 5 minute video (from a guy who doesnt know what he is talking about making videos we shouldnt watch apparently), but that allowed me to learn how to start a tomcat in.. well 5 minutes:

 

Not very difficult. Teach me the hydraulics and proper checks and testing the test panel later, but I wouldnt have been able to start the tomcat after hours of reading various DCS and module manuals, watching youtube clips embedded in manuals and doing basic in game training. And even if I would, I still wouldnt know how to hook up to the catapult. I wouldnt have known how to select my armament. Again, not very complicated stuff (!) but the information is simply no where to be found in the game or its documentation, or its hidden so deep, no sane noob would ever uncover it.

 

And really, its one thing to say, if you want to learn the ins and outs of the lantirn or operating the radar: go read this book. But if you let a newbie struggle for hours and read 100s of pages just to crank his engine, you lose that customer. Because he knows that radar is more complicated than cranking an engine.


Edited by Vertigo72
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I wasnt one bit surprised I ...

snip...

If you put the same time into learning the module that you do complaining here you’ll be an expert in no time! :lol:


Edited by SharpeXB

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If you put the same time into learning the module that you do complaining here you’ll be an expert in not time!

 

Expert Im not, but at least I do understand what all the buttons do by now. No thanks to the manuals.

 

But yeah, I dont mind spending some time arguing for making this game more accessible rather than even less accessible than it already is, so maybe, just maybe, it could some day reach a wider audience which could allow devs to spend more on the core.

 

The crowd of hardcore DCS fans who have forgotten what its like to be a noob (or worse, relish and are protective of their niche "status" and want not just the game, but even learning the game to be harder), IMO are DCS worst enemies. And its widespread in these forums.

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But yeah, I dont mind spending some time arguing for making this game more accessible rather than even less accessible than it already is,

Honestly I’m not sure what you want them to do or what they could do. In the end these are very complex machines and systems. You just have to plough through it.

 

The crowd of hardcore DCS fans who have forgotten what its like to be a noob (or worse, relish and are protective of their niche "status" and want not just the game, but even learning the game to be harder), IMO are DCS worst enemies. And its widespread in these forums.

Oh I do remember being a DCS noob! I bought the A-10C on a Steam sale for $20 and had no experience or knowledge whatsoever about modern aircraft. I had played RoF but that’s all.

So oh yeah I had to digest everything in that 671 page manual reading it on my iPhone. I didn’t know an HSI from an ADI or what any instruments were or anything. Now I can operate anything or do anything in it without even thinking. Same with many of the other modules. For me there’s no difference between auto-start and manual because it’s all second nature. You will get this if you practice enough, trust me. It just takes repetition.

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I wasnt one bit surprised I wasnt able to start a tomcat without help, I literally wouldnt haven known where to start.

 

But I was surprised I could barely even follow the instructions, I couldnt even figure out how to press that knob on the master test panel that I couldnt see (and which or course, is completely unnecessary for any introduction training) and I certainly couldnt distill from that training the basic information I actually needed to start up with no help. I could probably have followed that training 10x and Im still not sure i would have been able to do it alone and I couldnt tell what steps where optional and which wherent..

 

And again, if it really was so hard to start up a tomcat, then so be it. But its not.

 

oh and btw, I dont know if it was a bug or something they improved later, there was no "press space to continue" I had to speed read and memorize it all or keep wondering why that flashing square kept flashing over a button that did who knows what.

 

 

 

What cockpit orientation? I literally followed the first "basic" tutorial. There is a video embedded in the manual, but it explains nothing that the manual doesnt, it just names the various panels.

 

 

 

No. Really not.

 

Let me put it this way; here is a 5 minute video (from a guy who doesnt know what he is talking about making videos we shouldnt watch apparently), but that allowed me to learn how to start a tomcat in.. well 5 minutes:

 

Not very difficult. But I wouldnt have been able to do that after hours of reading various DCS and module manuals, watching youtube clips embedded in manuals and doing basic in game training. And even if I would, I still wouldnt know how to hook up to the catapult. I wouldnt have known how to select my armament. Again, not very complicated stuff (!) but the information is simply no where to be found in the game or its documentation, or its hidden so deep, no sane noob would ever uncover it.

 

OK, so let's boil this down, rather than the story about never reading a manual and "reading 1000 pages about stuff I have zero interest in yet", you didn't like the Tomcat cold start Lesson because it had a lot of tests and switch manipulation that was only tests and didnt get you off the ground fast enough. Am I wrong again? (I suspect we will disagree)

 

And to reinforce your point you've picked the GR video over the ones listed on the Heatblur website as the shining example of the best way to do it? Even though they state it's a stripped down process only they use?

https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/tutorials.html# Maybe you weren't even aware of the F-14 online manual, it hasn't had a mention so far?

 

 

 

So explain why anyone should have to put up with less detail and if we don't we are trying to defend a "niche status"? That is absurd in the extreme, the type of degenerate nonsensethat perpetuates the imaginary rift you have in your head.

 

 

I'm not convinced there is a problem at all with the information available for DCS, else I'd be needing to use GR videos too. As it is... I'm coping with the Lessons and the manual for the little things. I think the fact that there is a THIRTY-SIX part video series on the F-18C from the Producer of DCS, is enough to show that there is clearly important information out there that needs to be studied and can't quite fit in a five minute bundle. Maybe people LIKE this? Maybe rather than feeling like people are threatening your intellectual right to pick a Grim Reapers tutorial, you might just allow the people that want more to not feel like their space is threatened by the encroaching quick wins of the spoonfed masses? I can accept people want less. Why is it that if I want more, I'm labelled as trying to protect a niche status?

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So in order to figure out how to start your engines, you sign up to a forum and ask :music_whistling:

 

No, you go to interactive tutorials, you read the manual, or you even watch the official start-up procedure from the manufacturer if you want a video of it:

 

 

It really is not difficult to even learn that what DCS is all about watching a some good videos of it.

 

And one learns the procedure to start F-14 from the interactive training mission.

 

But this thread is not about your problems with F-14 or DCS overall. This is about adding a Air Refueling Assistance mode for those who need assistance and wants to enjoy overall DCS World missions etc.

 

We tested F-14 startup as pilot with a friend. We used teamviewer to share my screen to her, that gave a bad 18-22 FPS for her screen but as she was anyways using a mouse and keyboard only on her side, she managed to perform the F-14 startup even when she has NEVER even heard about DCS World.

 

The only assistance she truly got was that I launched the DCS World for her and I told her to go for training > F-14 > cold start as pilot, and then that she needed to press Ctrl+C to move view with mouse and again Ctrl+C to switch back to clickable mouse. That's it really.

 

The interactive tutorial is so plain and simple that one can just read and listen the guide and go through it. Some good points came around like how annoying it was how the messages was just removed from the view after some period without smooth transition. And how the radio menu was difficult to read as it was white text against light blue sky, Jester menu was too large "on the face" etc. Just small comments from someone doing something completely first time.

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I think the fact that there is a THIRTY-SIX part video series on the F-18C from the Producer of DCS, is enough to show that there is clearly important information out there that needs to be studied and can't quite fit in a five minute bundle. Maybe people LIKE this?

 

I see that there is three groups here. There are those who demands simpler, easier etc. Then there are those who want just pure ultimatum and if you can't handle it, beat it.

But there are those of us, who accept that there should be both for various reasons, it is not "either this or that", but both. Those who want hard core, can get it. And those who need assistance and wants simpler, they can get that too. Neither is away from either one. But the problem is that some people just can't accept that there is a place for both same time, and they simply can ignore the other side and enjoy what they have.

 

 

I can accept people want less. Why is it that if I want more, I'm labelled as trying to protect a niche status?

 

Exactly. People want an new mode that adds assistance for air refueling. Is that too much to ask? No.

 

But some people scream that it shouldn't be there at all, and should never be added. Is that too much to demand? Yes.

 

For me the one of the annoying things is that when the manual is not ready for the module and it is required to wait to get it. Like currently AV-8B N/A doesn't have manual, just pocket guide for simple things. But one can take a real NATOPS and read that, and get going.

 

There are us, a niche group of people who learn long time ago that specific a PC games came with a thick book for guidance. Like I don't even remember anymore how many pages did the Jane's Longbow 2 manual was. Or how long the Falcon 4.0 manual was.

 

But those were something that adult minds enjoyed, not kids.

Yet, there were this situation that games didn't come with manuals, you figured it out. Like Atari ST games had one tiny card as manual. That card was about 5 x 5 cm in size and it had very basic information about the game, usually the backstory. And then you figured everything else in the game out how to play. You had joystick, two buttons and everything else is learning by doing.

 

There is this common joke:

 

 

 

So of course there are people who feel they need to defend their only small island from the "tutorialism", but they should actually trust to ED that they are not doing that as they are for the realism, but they are as well for new players.

 

Like this is likely the reason why MAC was made own separate product because they can really make it more gaming style than offer anything for DCS World level to intimidate players who would require the GAME MODE and they see something far more difficult offered for sale as well.

 

Like it shouldn't be too difficult to ask that we could have more FC3 level aircrafts, or friends flying in GAME MODE with us with SIM MODE, all having fun. I wouldn't mind that a friend with just a few buttons joystick who is interested about aviation could be flying with me, even when she would have a easier to do things than me!

As over time she might like the idea to take it one step further and start to invest more time to learn a lot of things and become a "wingman".

 

So now it is just the "highway" where it is absolute that either go play some AAA titles (aces of sky, or what ever their names now are) and do not even look at DCS World, or then be ready to sell your soul for a ATC overload that will demand 100 hours first of training before you are allowed to go solo.

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I’m not sure what the above means

Three versions of DCS aircraft?

Sim Mode

Game Mode

and what...? Sorta sim mode?

Forget it, these things take to long to develop as it is.

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I don't want to argue anymore, but just ask a simple question. Take wake turbulence for example,

it can be turned on or off. I have it turned on but if I decided to turn it off how would that effect other players? They wouldn't even know as I play SP.

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Fri, with respect, you're wrong and you crossed the line pulling children and disabled people against us.

 

No, you crossed the line by demanding ultimatums.

I speak behalf of all people who can not for various reasons either spend thousands for a high end PC, high end controllers, high end motion platform, spend hundreds of hours flying each aircraft to become better, hone their skills 8 hours a day on every evening and weekends flying so seriously that if you don't do something exactly as one screams then you are out.

 

Because I know people that I talked about. I have teached under 10 year old kids to fly in DCS. I have build setups for paralyzed people who has various real handicaps, starting from just being wheelchair to all kind other things. But who has a interest and passion to fly.

 

I as well have helped people who are common gamers that how to get to fly, have fun and enjoy from it even if they would have just a XBOX 360 controller or keyboard and mouse at begin!

 

And you are against all those people. You don't even care about anyone else than all ultimatums that only specific kind people is target of DCS World.

 

 

Please, read again who you are defending because I read that they specificaly said they don't want to learn AAR.

 

GO TO READ YOURSELF!

 

They literally say that they want to learn, but they do not want to spend first dozens of hours learning first thing that but want to be able get slight assistance in the early phase until their skills gets better!

 

There are always as well those who want to just be on GAME MODE, and that is completely alright because NOTHING IS AWAY FROM US WHO WANT CHALLENGE!

 

Nobody is against noobs here either, they're very welcome instead.

 

Nobody? Look at the what few members here are talking, pure elitism that it is either hardcore or go to other games.... That there is no flexibility, no easy transmission from beginner to expert as everything should be "You either make it or don't".

 

The community is great about it, there are squadrons for newbs, there's DCS Academy, there are people offering their free time, knowledge and experience for free.

 

Sorry but no. Just go read peoples arguments in this specific thread how easy AAR shouldn't be an option like a easy radio, infinite weapons, unlimited fuel etc are.

 

 

So please think again what are you talking about.

 

Please think again what you are claiming, and go read what I have replied to people who state only ultimatums that it is black and white with bully attitude: "When I played football as a kid, I was pushed very hard. We didn't accept mediocrity. Go hard or go home and get better, then come back!". And the military is full of such people who truly has no idea how to train people to be better, and they get to their position because they are just awful people until they learn better (good examples how people turn better are like Bob Ross, who turned his whole life around. I know there such people too).

 

 

Hell, even see my badge - DCS Ground Crew. Yeah, everybody can get one, but it comes from what I do (and I know you sometimes do too) - and I help people, I offer my free time, knowledge and experience for others - mostly new players, young and old, and most of them seem to grasp the idea that it's hard in DCS but it's worth it to invest time on learning and money on the hardware and modules.

 

This is not about who is helping who and where and how much.

As this is about one new assistance feature that is simple to implement and doesn't take anything away from experienced people or is not holding back anymore people who are improving their skills.

 

I do that in real life, not in this forum because here you get attacked from elitist who demand that it is just "my way or highway" and doesn't accept that people requires assistance and some might never be good enough no matter how much they want.

In a flight club where all kind people come in various events etc, people are interested. Just like in training in real life in military, sports or anything, you need to adapt the training per personnel. Not everyone are ready to be in A division, some just want to play with their friends or have fun. So one screaming and yelling face red as how to do things in the "real sports" or "when I was in army..." doesn't help. If someone wants that kind requirements, they can go and join to military.

 

Heck, there are guys with poor hardware barely running the game using keyboard and still willing to learn and keep flying. So there are already means to learn from the easiest to the hardest - I don't take away from anyone by stating my opinion against helpers, assists and simplifications.

 

Assistance systems are for good. When you can adjust their effect and you can eventually decide you don't need to enable them anymore. They are like a training wheels, like a mirror, like a sparrer or all kind other assistance utilities, features etc. It is okay.

 

It's just my opinion on what should DCS look like. You're free to express yours but please don't make it personal against people who have different one.

 

It is not personal, I don't personally care anything about others as they can not hurt my feelings. But when they start bullying others, they start to be elitists who demand that something needs to be very hard and difficult for others so no one else than like them could enjoy from it, that goes too far. That is bullying others. And I do not accept bullying.

 

If they can't withstand that their opinions have no logic, no sense and they are reminded that they are bullying even a group of people who need assistance just by telling others "to get good or go away", then it is their problem.

 

As I have kept continually saying, an assistance feature to make a air refueling easier for some people is not away from anyone who wants it as realistic as possible. Because I BELONG TO THAT GROUP WHO WANTS ULTIMATE SIMULATION. Do you understand that? But I am not bullying those who can't! I am not pointing as my personal opinions that it should be only the HARD WAY OR GO HOME, because how I want it, is not how someone else might want it.

And it seems that I am one of the few here who accepts that there are people with various levels of skills and talents who fly in DCS World, and they want to learn more or less, but they should be all supported and helped regardless how their capabilities to do so is.

Why a optional assistance feature is welcomed, it is not away from any of us who want full challenge.

 

I started too somewhere - first 8bit sims, then some old PC sims, then Lock On but got seriously into aviation with DCS and nowhere in my vpilot career I needed helpers because I wanted it more real, not easier. I might have been choosing simpler and easier missions and that's available to anyone starting.

 

When you teach a 6 year old to fly because he wants to fly a helicopter, you don't even do it so difficult that if they hit the ground they explode. You don't give them a flight model that they can flip around and they are more like a lawnmovers than helicopters because their hand and eye coordination is not so good. But DCS World offers exactly that possibility, that you can turn GAME MODE on, you get to be with the children and you get to teach them from the start how to do things. And when they get better and they learn, you start to remove the assisting features. You play the long play, that in 10 years they will have good memories of something, that they are more interested about it when they get an idea "Yeah, it was fun".

 

It is everything in the life. You go play with the kids in various sports, but you do not go for 100% like with other adults for serious play. So if there is a 10 year old in a goal, you are not going to kick the ball there as hard you can and as high you can. No, you put your own "easy mode" On. You make them to have a good change to fail and succeed. So they need to work for it, but they will feel it is fair and square.

5 years later when they are 15, you are not anymore holding back same way, you do it differently. 5 years from that, there you are with own challenges to kick the ball so that they wouldn't catch that!

 

No one should expect that a 5 year old playing the football should be considered "If you can't do it, go home and come back when you are ready". But that is why you don't see 5 year old ones on the A division games with millions of people watching. Because it is not their arena.

 

 

You do easy task first and go on with higher tier as you get experience. Oh and I have a kid, wife, daily job, not much time for DCS if you ask me.

 

That is why you have easy mode, assistance and all other features to make it possible.....

Easy Air Refueling assistance mode wouldn't be away from anyone who want full challenge. Not by a bit. It would just be there to allow some people get it easy in some part of their journey when they need it.

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As I already said, it's not the presence or absence of the options that anyone is concerned about.

 

The folks that have been here a long time know that they have waited years and years for very important basic stuff: Weather, ATC, AI, MP performance.

 

The concern is we will never get anywhere if we cannot get better weather/clouds etc, the waiting time is into many years.

 

By all means, put this at the back of a very very long queue.

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I don't want to argue anymore, but just ask a simple question. Take wake turbulence for example,

it can be turned on or off. I have it turned on but if I decided to turn it off how would that effect other players? They wouldn't even know as I play SP.

 

Exactly.

 

More choices we have to adjust the difficulties, levels of something etc, then better.

Like we can set a basic level for AI skill level, we can disable them from shooting back etc.

 

It doesn't matter a bit if someone does use those, or doesn't, as it is their choice!

 

Added "Assisted Air Refueling" with a adjustment scale to change its effectiveness (as I proposed) wouldn't be away from anyone, it would just add a feature for those who would need it.

 

It is not black and white where such mode would be forced to everyone, just a optional setting to be enabled when needed.

 

But I let people to argue how it is ruining the DCS World and how it becomes like pathway to hell....

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By all means, put this at the back of a very very long queue.

 

It is not like you put things in queue in order of arrival. Just the opposite. You group the features to production so when you start to do something, you push them through when it happens.

 

Otherwise you will be redoing everything everytime you want to improve something else and it will never end.

 

It is normal project management, you can't install a roof on building before foundation is laid out.

And if you need to add a new features to foundation but it needs to be first developed, you wait until you have all the basic functions available to do so. So if a water company doesn't come on site to connect the pipes, you wait. If the electrician changes schedule, you wait. If something that you need to be added is in waiting, you wait.

 

That is why you throw the ideas for something when it is still in the planning phase. Like you do not focus your time to curtains when you still are working the framework, but you do think where you place windows when you are designing the house blueprints.

 

A new weather system is very complex thing, that is linked to many many other functions. And you can't go implementing those other functions when all is waiting a new weather system, or weather system is waiting something else to be done first.

 

For a normal person it feels bad when they just think it is "I just take the blue curtains" when they are waiting to full house to be renovated.

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I speak behalf of all people who can not for various reasons either spend thousands for a high end PC, high end controllers, high end motion platform, spend hundreds of hours flying each aircraft to become better, hone their skills 8 hours a day on every evening and weekends flying

AAR does not require any of these things. It just requires practice. Maybe a week or two but that's all.

Added "Assisted Air Refueling" with a adjustment scale to change its effectiveness (as I proposed) wouldn't be away from anyone, it would just add a feature for those who would need it.

 

That would just screw you up trying to learn it for real and mess up your reactions. I could see an AI completely taking over your plane but DCS doesn't have that feature now although AI can refuel themselves. Nothing in DCS is "easy" for ED to do so I would never think any Wishlist item is insignificant to accomplish.

 

I as well have helped people who are common gamers that how to get to fly, have fun and enjoy from it even if they would have just a XBOX 360 controller or keyboard and mouse at begin!

I still don't understand why this category of player needs to AAR. Just select Unlimited Fuel. Most all the aircraft in DCS will fly long enough in simple gameplay that you won't even need that option.


Edited by SharpeXB

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Aren't you just spinning your wheels if your equipment is not up to snuff and/or don't have time or resources?

 

I care not what cheats gets added or what does not. I don't care what a user decides to turn on/off. None of this ruins DCS. Just waters it down a bit.

 

Wishlist are fine when they are focused on actual needed things like comms and weather. All others should be bottom tier items.

 

This whole all inclusiveness argument though is very weak and for weak minded individuals. Why take on something you are not equipped for, then ask for others to cater to you? If the minimum requirement is 50 push ups and you can't meet the group requirement, is everyone supposed to lower the level to cater to you who cannot meet said requirement? If DCS needs 4GB's and I only have 2, I need to get more money to get that other 2(no matter the cost), not ask ED to lower the GB's!

 

The weak or unable (for whatever reason) either get stronger or they get weeded out! If you don't have money to buy something, work more (or steal it, JK) and wait until you do. If you can't hack it, get stronger and come back when you CAN hack it. I'm sure SOMEONE will miss my point! lol

 

You have bench riders in sports for a reason gentlemen!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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Here is what Im hearing: its your fault for using built-in tutorials and not reading "the" manual. No, that this manual you idiot, that other manual of course. And dont actually read the manual, are you daft? watch the youtube vids hidden at the end of the manual. And not those other youtube vids by XYZ, only these youtube vids by ABC, how else will you learn how to test the fire extinguisher lights before trying out your new toy. And ok, that rather vital information is not in any manual, that stuff OF COURSE can be found by reading every line in the key binding menu. Just read it and ignore the 99% stuff you dont understand, you will find the 1% thing you didnt know you where looking for or existed. And if you cant find it there either, its on wikipedia! And if you cant find it on wikipedia, ask in the forums. Where no doubt, someone will kindly tell you to RTFM.

 

How could we possibly make this any easier? I have no idea.

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