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Guess what! Easy AAR!


Gregkar

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It's not difficult and it's all about training. I hope that ED better physics to make it look more like the real thing. Currently the basket has a magnet and this is extremely unreal. If ED does an easy way, it would be killing DCS. DCS is real life simulation!. I hope the basket and the hose will collide.


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No anger here at all but I'm out of this discussion as it only makes people feel some type of way. And some don't, can't or won't comprehend what I am saying. Let me be clear, DCS is the Ferrari. But a Ferrari won't save you from bad driving technique! You have to learn it! The features in a Ferrari are not cheats! They are more like safety features lol. All other sims are Prius; good gas mileage but an eye sore and drives like crap, no matter how you drive it. Doesn't really give you that feel of the road! I love DCS and the community. Keeping it from being an arcade game was my point and I'll stick to that. They can add all the cheats they want. But as I said, if not careful, DCS will turn into a watered down product. It just takes time. And time and resources could be better spent on improving other things than cheats for people that won't even try!

 

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No. We can't do that for various reasons. The main reason is such a thing called as "Fun".

 

Our fun for high realism is not others fun. And we need to understand that we need to support fun at various levels, even with or without cheats.

 

 

 

We need various "easy X" modes and levels for each of them. Like "Unlimited fuel" should have such options like you can set the percentage of fuel that is maintained. So if you set 55% fuel, then you never lose or gain more fuel but maintain 55% fuel level.

 

 

 

 

So you want FC3 product to be deleted.

You want all the possibilities to bind any other feature than real throttle and joystick has to your HOTAS.

You want that G forces starts to affect how quickly or how much you can turn your camera.

You want that you can't never change laser codes in the aircraft but only when rearming.

You want of course 15-30 minute turn times as minimum, only few special aircraft's designed for that like Viggen.

 

All such things can be done, but they should be optional, even as default we would need to have all kind "easy X" things and capabilities like bind a landing gear leveler to throttle or have external cameras views and so on.

 

Sorry, but DCS must be for wide variation of the gamers. It can't be done only for extremely hard core fans. No matter how much we want HC features, we MUST as well accept that not everyone are able, or want to, fly in highest immersion and highest difficulty by various reasons.

Your last line describes the problem right there.

 

"It can't be done only for extremely hard core fans. No matter how much we want HC features, we MUST as well accept that not everyone are able, or want to, fly in highest immersion and highest difficulty by various reasons. "

 

Then they should go for the arcade stuff or other civil sims and fly a Cessna if DCS is so difficult! There is no MUST accept...you don't show up to the Championship game or the Pro's hoping the others will accept YOUR handicap and change the rules. Do you have a go at "Call of Duty" yet you don't know how the controls work before you log in and fight on a sever? You'd get decimated! You either get better at whatever it is you do, or don't. Come on!

 

Anyone who's played sports or ever competed knows this!

 

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I feel like this has been polarized too much. Like I said above, I don't mind for easy features to be added to the Easy Flight mode. That's its entire purpose. Or at the very least, make such features server specific, so a server can disable. What I have an issue with is the addition of such features outside Game Flight mode, where they might be used to develop bad habits and dilute the experience.

It's fine for someone new to DCS to start in Game mode, that's why it's there. And when they feel ready to be subjected to all the nuances and difficulties of the proper flight model, including the inability to fly perfect formation without proper input, then they'll disable Game mode and try it for themselves.

As long as the experience still moves towards a more realistic approach in the core sim, with hose physics and a basket collision model, for example. And since it was brought up, I'd gladly pay for the core of DCS, if that'd help with development.

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DCS is a journey, not a destination. What’s with the “I don’t have time” reasoning? Where are you trying to get to?

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Let me be clear, DCS is the Ferrari. But a Ferrari won't save you from bad driving technique! You have to learn it! The features in a Ferrari are not cheats! They are more like safety features lol. All other sims are Prius; good gas mileage but an eye sore and drives like crap, no matter how you drive it.

 

Good news, Ferrari Lead Designer saw you post and decided to modify their driving wheel "manetino" for their models to come.

 

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Then they should go for the arcade stuff or other civil sims and fly a Cessna if DCS is so difficult!

 

So you have opinion that it is either your way or highway.

 

There is no MUST accept...you don't show up to the Championship game or the Pro's hoping the others will accept YOUR handicap and change the rules.

 

And how does the server administrator deny you from doing that?

 

You can right now decide to host a server in GAME MODE or in SIM MODE. You can literally set in the mission editor your wanted rules, ALLOWED / NOT-ALLOWED / ENFORCED.

 

You do not remember from where you have started, you have come long road to get to level to play DCS at higher difficulties and limitations. But do not try to deny from others the means to learn and get to there by using assistance when needed and step by step disabling them when their skills gets better.

 

The DCS is nowhere near the hard core simulation that you make people believe it is. It is FAR from it. You are not put behind a desk because you decided to take-off from taxiway. You are not required to talk to ATC to get permission to even start the engines! You do not need to perform any of the required checks and follow rules and all just to get rolling!

 

You can change weapons laser codes even mid-flight! You have unrealistic spotting distances by able to see too far! The enemies on ground are as smart and dangerous as a white rock on shooting range!

 

You can pretend that you want hard core, true realism and true difficulties, but you truly do not want, and you do not want that one can begin to fly DCS and get enjoyment from getting step by step going through tutorials and training where their hands are hold so they get nice good learning curve where they eventually get up to fly without assistance.

 

 

Do you have a go at "Call of Duty" yet you don't know how the controls work before you log in and fight on a sever? You'd get decimated! You either get better at whatever it is you do, or don't. Come on!

 

Yes.... "My way or highway".

 

 

Anyone who's played sports or ever competed knows this!

Funniest things I've heard this week!

 

Yes... Everyone starts from something, you clearly didn't. You seem to have born right to adulthood with all the knowledge and experience with full talent so you don't even need skills.

 

Seriously. You do not understand that NO ONE IS FORCING THIS TO YOU!

 

It is for those who for WHAT EVER REASON want to have a easier air refueling, THAT DOES NOT FORCE EVERYONE ELSE TO DO SO!

 

Your argument of "handicap" for sports is as well completely false. Or you truly must have been really nice parent who took every game with child so seriously that you didn't apply any handicap to you.... So when you took a running game, you truly sprinted as fast as you could while your 2 year old.... So when your child does something very bad and you need to punish them, you truly hit them as hard you can.

 

As "Life is hard, get use to it!"

 

Or how about we would all accept that we love aviation. Be it a civilian aviation or military aviation. And we should understand that there are people who are interested from it as well, intrigued from it and as well love it, regardless what their capabilities are for it!

 

Maybe there is a 8 year old who loves to fly a fighter jet, but regardless having difficulties to find enemies anywhere or get a lock on, they can use a GAME MODE to make it easy by pressing button "lock on closest target" and shoot it down?

 

Maybe there is a 50 year old who has had an accident and is paralyzed from other side of their body and would like to fly fighters and drop bombs while only having one hand, one leg and one eye...?

 

Maybe there is a teen with a ADHD that would like to fly combat aircrafts, but just can not by any means extend their patience for the task to do air refueling?

 

You can completely try to ignore that there are such people, with various reasons why they can not perform so well in games, but do not try to be an elitist that they shouldn't even have options to get such assistance as they would benefit to do what they have passion for!

 

FamiliarKaleidoscopicFlycatcher-size_restricted.gif

 

 

Maybe there is the problem, that you can not accept that other people not skilled or talented as you, would have a love for combat simulation but just would need some assistance in some of different parts of the flying....

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I feel like this has been polarized too much. Like I said above, I don't mind for easy features to be added to the Easy Flight mode. That's its entire purpose. Or at the very least, make such features server specific, so a server can disable. What I have an issue with is the addition of such features outside Game Flight mode, where they might be used to develop bad habits and dilute the experience.

 

So you want players to go to GAME MODE, to get a even slight assistance, or get a tools for testing things like aerodynamics and flight characteristics to compare them to real pilot handbook etc....

 

The GAME MODE should specifically be about flight modeling and targeting systems, not about assistance.

 

So things like a 100% accurate radar scope on screen with bindings for "target closest enemy, enemy at center" etc and flight modeling so you can not flip the helicopter around no matter how you try. They are there just for that purpose exactly.

 

But things like "Invulnerability", "Unlimited weapons", "unlimited fuel" etc are for simulation purposes. So we can test, try and train without all the hassle to get there. So we can example keep testing how does a SAM engage us without restarting mission every time it hits us. Or we can keep running bombing tests without ever destroying the target or losing bombs requiring restarting the mission etc. We really would need a "unlimited fuel" to be turned to another feature, called "No fuel consumption". So that we can set the vehicle have wanted amount of fuel, but it will never get consumed so it is unlimited, but we could fly all the aerodynamic tests and compare flight data in TacView for testing purposes, like what difference is between 2150 kg vs 3200 kg fuel at various altitudes, AoA etc. Even a "Easy Radio" is not for game mode, it is for assistance in simulation.

 

 

Isn't a DCS about to be as much "Study Level" simulator as it is for a combat aviation fans to destroy things?

 

 

It's fine for someone new to DCS to start in Game mode, that's why it's there. And when they feel ready to be subjected to all the nuances and difficulties of the proper flight model, including the inability to fly perfect formation without proper input, then they'll disable Game mode and try it for themselves.

 

We should allow them a means to add some assistance (easy radio, unlimited weapons etc) for various tasks. They don't need to enable them if they so want, we don't. It is not like it is a default that everyone must go to disable.....

 

As long as the experience still moves towards a more realistic approach in the core sim, with hose physics and a basket collision model, for example. And since it was brought up, I'd gladly pay for the core of DCS, if that'd help with development.

 

Nothing in the "Easy Air Refueling" mode would be away from those who want more limitations, more challenge and more time spent for training. Nothing. At all. It is not "This or that". But it is "Add this feature too". It is a wish for a slight addition among others already in the game. Something that is optional to be enabled by those who make missions and who require it!

 

The laser code change for the bombs, missiles and rockets should be removed from the Hornet, Viper etc. Completely unrealistic features. They should be changed by the ground crew by the commands of their superior. So closest thing we should have in "easy mode" is then a kneeboard when the aircraft is cold and dark, to set the laser codes for each weapon before you start rearming (and that should take depending the aircraft from 10 minutes to 3 hours or so, instead 2 minutes).

 

Would people then accept a new "Easy laser code" mode in mission editor? That would allow one to set the laser codes for the weapons through UFC? That would be very much liked feature among many "hard core pilots" here....

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Maybe there is a 8 year old who loves to fly a fighter jet, but regardless having difficulties to find enemies anywhere or get a lock on, they can use a GAME MODE to make it easy by pressing button "lock on closest target" and shoot it down?

Oh get real, an 8 year old kid is not going to buy an $80 plane in DCS :doh:

They’re going to get some free iPhone flying game or Xbox title. This is not a game for kiddos!

Someday they will grow up and want a real simulation but people start out in much more simple games than DCS. That’s what ED is making MAC for.

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Oh get real! It's you that needs to get real! You keep going on about realism so I hope next time you get shot down you stick by that and don't log on again. After all irl it would be a long time before you flew again if ever, or is that too realistic for you?

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I think that is a good plan. All those saying it needs to be more real, lets have a mode that whenever you crash or get shot down, you need to buy the module again. Its not as real as actually dying, but its more real than just hitting rely and may solve EDs problems.

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So you have opinion that it is either your way or highway.

 

 

 

And how does the server administrator deny you from doing that?

 

You can right now decide to host a server in GAME MODE or in SIM MODE. You can literally set in the mission editor your wanted rules, ALLOWED / NOT-ALLOWED / ENFORCED.

 

You do not remember from where you have started, you have come long road to get to level to play DCS at higher difficulties and limitations. But do not try to deny from others the means to learn and get to there by using assistance when needed and step by step disabling them when their skills gets better.

 

The DCS is nowhere near the hard core simulation that you make people believe it is. It is FAR from it. You are not put behind a desk because you decided to take-off from taxiway. You are not required to talk to ATC to get permission to even start the engines! You do not need to perform any of the required checks and follow rules and all just to get rolling!

 

You can change weapons laser codes even mid-flight! You have unrealistic spotting distances by able to see too far! The enemies on ground are as smart and dangerous as a white rock on shooting range!

 

You can pretend that you want hard core, true realism and true difficulties, but you truly do not want, and you do not want that one can begin to fly DCS and get enjoyment from getting step by step going through tutorials and training where their hands are hold so they get nice good learning curve where they eventually get up to fly without assistance.

 

 

 

 

Yes.... "My way or highway".

 

 

 

 

Yes... Everyone starts from something, you clearly didn't. You seem to have born right to adulthood with all the knowledge and experience with full talent so you don't even need skills.

 

Seriously. You do not understand that NO ONE IS FORCING THIS TO YOU!

 

It is for those who for WHAT EVER REASON want to have a easier air refueling, THAT DOES NOT FORCE EVERYONE ELSE TO DO SO!

 

Your argument of "handicap" for sports is as well completely false. Or you truly must have been really nice parent who took every game with child so seriously that you didn't apply any handicap to you.... So when you took a running game, you truly sprinted as fast as you could while your 2 year old.... So when your child does something very bad and you need to punish them, you truly hit them as hard you can.

 

As "Life is hard, get use to it!"

 

Or how about we would all accept that we love aviation. Be it a civilian aviation or military aviation. And we should understand that there are people who are interested from it as well, intrigued from it and as well love it, regardless what their capabilities are for it!

 

Maybe there is a 8 year old who loves to fly a fighter jet, but regardless having difficulties to find enemies anywhere or get a lock on, they can use a GAME MODE to make it easy by pressing button "lock on closest target" and shoot it down?

 

Maybe there is a 50 year old who has had an accident and is paralyzed from other side of their body and would like to fly fighters and drop bombs while only having one hand, one leg and one eye...?

 

Maybe there is a teen with a ADHD that would like to fly combat aircrafts, but just can not by any means extend their patience for the task to do air refueling?

 

You can completely try to ignore that there are such people, with various reasons why they can not perform so well in games, but do not try to be an elitist that they shouldn't even have options to get such assistance as they would benefit to do what they have passion for!

 

FamiliarKaleidoscopicFlycatcher-size_restricted.gif

 

 

Maybe there is the problem, that you can not accept that other people not skilled or talented as you, would have a love for combat simulation but just would need some assistance in some of different parts of the flying....

I never said nor mentioned my way or the highway. Re-read what I said instead of taking bits of it. You completely misread everything I stated.

 

When you start lifting, do you start at the heaviest weight or work up to it? Sure, you can have someone spot you, but that's minimal help. Do you learn everything you can before your bench press (diet, supplements)? Or do you walk into the gym, unprepared to do anything of substance and hope that you will walk out looking like Mr. Olympia? I bench 250, I have to work to get up to 350. There's no cheat for that!

 

As I am typing, I KNOW my analogies will fly over your head, but I'll continue.

 

I don't have children (thank the universe) as I led many youngsters in the military and that was enough. I'd show them the way (training) and then they execute. We have a shitload of manuals. Ask a stupid question and you were met with "did you read the manual"? The same was taught to me. There were no handicaps or cheats. Just help, maybe lol. Life is hard, accept it! Your line about children and sports was kind of off. When I played football as a kid, I was pushed very hard. We didn't accept mediocrity. Go hard or go home and get better, then come back!

 

I definitely would never make a post whining about something I barely tried (the original reason I posted in the first place)! And then ask for a handicap because I don't have time! The small majority want things catered to them. That's the weakest stuff ever! Man up and learn whatever it is you are trying to do. There are a plethora of post where it is obvious the OP did not bother to read the manual. It's just laziness!

 

As I said, ED can add what they please. Obviously it wont stop me from doing me. But don't bring that weak excuse of all inclusiveness. Making special adds and cheats for people too inept or lazy is the issue.

 

Peace!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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@Jackjack

Just one question, when you joined DCS did you spend 12 or 14 hrs a day just learning theory with the occasional flight for month after month with no breaks? I'll bet you didn't!

If you did then I apologise, if you didn't then don't try to dictate to others how to play the game.

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Fri, with respect, you're wrong and you crossed the line pulling children and disabled people against us. Please, read again who you are defending because I read that they specificaly said they don't want to learn AAR. Nobody is against noobs here either, they're very welcome instead. The community is great about it, there are squadrons for newbs, there's DCS Academy, there are people offering their free time, knowledge and experience for free. So please think again what are you talking about. Hell, even see my badge - DCS Ground Crew. Yeah, everybody can get one, but it comes from what I do (and I know you sometimes do too) - and I help people, I offer my free time, knowledge and experience for others - mostly new players, young and old, and most of them seem to grasp the idea that it's hard in DCS but it's worth it to invest time on learning and money on the hardware and modules. Heck, there are guys with poor hardware barely running the game using keyboard and still willing to learn and keep flying. So there are already means to learn from the easiest to the hardest - I don't take away from anyone by stating my opinion against helpers, assists and simplifications. It's just my opinion on what should DCS look like. You're free to express yours but please don't make it personal against people who have different one.

I started too somewhere - first 8bit sims, then some old PC sims, then Lock On but got seriously into aviation with DCS and nowhere in my vpilot career I needed helpers because I wanted it more real, not easier. I might have been choosing simpler and easier missions and that's available to anyone starting. You do easy task first and go on with higher tier as you get experience. Oh and I have a kid, wife, daily job, not much time for DCS if you ask me.

 

Falby, you failed to understand what flight simulation is - you mistaken it for life simulation?


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@Jackjack

Just one question, when you joined DCS did you spend 12 or 14 hrs a day just learning theory with the occasional flight for month after month with no breaks? I'll bet you didn't!

If you did then I apologise, if you didn't then don't try to dictate to others how to play the game.

Obviously you missed the point as well. Not going to debate with people that cannot read between the lines.

 

Dude you cant be this sensitive! Really!

 

I don't try and dictate anything. That's not why I posted in the first place! If that's how you took it then so be it! I made a comment. The same as you all do day in and day out. Do as you please. That's your right! No one is stopping you! But I stand by what I said. Anyone with hurt feelings about that, then that's their problem.

 

As for your assumption as to what I do or don't, nice try! I could get offended but I've heard worse while deployed IRL! Sounds like you are taking this personally. It also tells me you did NOT read what I posted in it's entirety! Either that or you have trouble comprehending. This was MY comment and contribution to the community. I may be direct in how I say things but I am firm in them as any man would. Comes with leading men and women for over 2 decades.

 

No apology is needed. This was supposed to be a discussion but people like you and others either missed my point altogether or chose to ignore it.


Edited by Jackjack171

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Fri, with respect, you're wrong and you crossed the line pulling children and disabled people against us. Please, read again who you are defending because I read that they specificaly said they don't want to learn AAR. Nobody is against noobs here either, they're very welcome instead. The community is great about it, there are squadrons for newbs, there's DCS Academy, there are people offering their free time, knowledge and experience for free. So please think again what are you talking about. Hell, even see my badge - DCS Ground Crew. Yeah, everybody can get one, but it comes from what I do (and I know you sometimes do too) - and I help people, I offer my free time, knowledge and experience for others - mostly new players, young and old, and most of them seem to grasp the idea that it's hard in DCS but it's worth it to invest time on learning and money on the hardware and modules. Heck, there are guys with poor hardware barely running the game using keyboard and still willing to learn and keep flying. So there are already means to learn from the easiest to the hardest - I don't take away from anyone by stating my opinion against helpers, assists and simplifications. It's just my opinion on what should DCS look like. You're free to express yours but please don't make it personal against people who have different one.

I started too somewhere - first 8bit sims, then some old PC sims, then Lock On but got seriously into aviation with DCS and nowhere in my vpilot career I needed helpers because I wanted it more real, not easier. I might have been choosing simpler and easier missions and that's available to anyone starting. You do easy task first and go on with higher tier as you get experience. Oh and I have a kid, wife, daily job, not much time for DCS if you ask me.

 

Falby, you failed to understand what flight simulation is - you mistaken it for life simulation?

Thank you! Someone understood what I was saying!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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That DCS is noob friendly is just a joke, and not a funny one.

 

To give you my personal perspective on that; I have been flying flight sims since i was a little kid, FS1 on a TRS-80 model 1 at my fathers work place. Ive played Chuck Yeagers air combat, Falcon 1.0 through 3.0 (even played that in multiplayer with a serial cable!), little bit of MS flight sims, Ive flown il2 sturmovik and 1946 intensely and fanatically for about a decade, was disappointed with cliffs of dover and switched to some Rise of Flight and then Condor soaring simulator ever since. I have some RL flying experience too. 300-ish hours gliding. Though unlicensed I have a fair bit of stick time in all kinds of planes, from cessna's and glassairs to a Boeing Stearman. I also have a few decades RC flying experience, anything from discus launch gliders and warbirds to FPV freestyle/racing drones. Im not a particularly gifted pilot, nor an ambitious one, Im not entirely hopeless and I think I have a broader background than most "DCS noobs".

 

I have tried DCS several times over the past 5 or whatever years. Every time it was the same. I would load it and sit there in the cockpit thinking, now what? With pure luck and 30 minutes of trying, I got the TF-51 going, but flying a warbird alone, with no opponents and no weapons is not my idea of fun. It looked like Il2, flew not too different from IL2 just with poor framerates and no fun.

 

So I would sit in the the Su25 with a russian cockpit. No frigging clue what to do. I would go to the control setup and be completely and utterly overwhelmed. I didnt even know what 90% of those binding meant, let alone what I would really need. I dont recognise any of these weapons, what if I just want some unguided bombs or rockets, what on earth are those things? I dont really have any affinity with the Su25 anyhow, so I wasnt going to spend a ton of time learning it, I would just uninstall DCS again and go have fun in IL-2, RoF or condor.

 

It wasnt until the F14 was released that I thought, I do want to learn that. And boy, did that require perseverance. Not so much the flying part, but everything else.

 

So I purchased my new toy and all I wanted to do was take off from a carrier, try and shoot my guns at some bombers or something flying in a straight line, nothing too difficult, and then most likely crash trying to land on that carrier. That was my initial ambition, all the rest I would learn little by little.

 

So I went through the built-in training to learn how to start my engines. First thing it says: you should be familiar with the cockpit, please go read that 500 page PDF. *GULP* Until then Ive never ever even read a manual for any sim -ever. But ok, this is more realistic and the F14 is more complicated than a warbird or glider, so I was willing to do some reading. So I browsed through the manual, skipped to the cockpit layout to learn at least some of the things I was looking at.

 

First thing it talks about is G valve test button. Okay.

Then Oxygen airflow control. Fine. Do I care at this point?

Volume/TACAN panel. What is Tacan? Manual just assumes I know. Do I care ? Should I care? no idea. Volumes probably not that important

ALR-67 knob. What on earth is the ALR-67?

TACAN control panel. Still no idea what tacan is, let alone what TACAN BIT button does, except that according to the manual, it initiates TACAN BIT. Helpful! Will it help start my engines though?

ICS control panel. What is ICS? Oh, ok, its the babyphone. Dont need that do I?

AFCS control panel. Just what I needed, more acronyms. Thankfully I can figure that one out, because the panel itself is more helpful than the manual and mentions stability augmentation.

AN/ARC-159. Yeah looks like a radio. Im flying alone, why do I care.

Then more stuff i dont care about. Pictures of the actual controls. Cool, but I dont have those. I have a joystick and my throttle is kinda different. What do I need to map? What dont I need?

Picture of the throttle quadrant. I cant even figure out the damn picture! Seriously. Look at it, can you?

Then load of engine instrument gauges, the manual doesnt really explain any of them, what they mean. I dont care, Im gonna assume my brand new tomcat engines work fine and are covered by warranty.

Airspeed indicator. Now that is useful. Or will be if I ever get flying. Its a weird one though. I dont get it. Im sure Ill understand when I actually see it in use.

 

More stuff I dont care about, many, many more acronyms I have idea what they mean. I think Im done reading this "manual", Ive learned *nothing*, so I go back to the training.

 

If you have the F14 modue, I highly recommend you do the cold start training. Imagine yourself in the situation I was in, just bought the thing, wanted to take off and shoot stuff. Then follow that cold start training. Its hilarious! Goes on and on about testing lights, testing hydraulics, checking 124 numbers on dials that I dont know what they mean and there is no frigging way I can even remember 10% of that, and I have no idea which steps are really needed and which ones arent. Does anyone tell me I can just press windows+home? Nope. I only learned that a year later (true story). Does anyone tell me the few steps that really are required? Nope. Well, not the manual, not the training, thank god for youtube.

 

So I finally started the engines and aligned the INS, now what? I dont see it in the manual, I dont see a training. How do I get to the catapult? How do I attach to it? More youtube.

 

And ever since its been youtube, youtube, youtube. Googling of acronyms and then more youtube. If it werent for grim reapers, I would have long uninstalled DCS.

 

Noob friendly, my ass!


Edited by Vertigo72
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That DCS is noob friendly is just a joke, and not a funny one.

 

It is a beginner friendly, when you just follow the basics how to do things. There is no such thing as "intuition", but a thing called "familiar".

 

To give you my personal perspective on that; I have been flying flight sims since i was a little kid, FS1 on a TRS-80 model 1 at my fathers work place. Ive played Chuck Yeagers air combat, Falcon 1.0 through 3.0, little bit of MS flight sims, Ive flown il2 sturmovik and 1946 intensely and fanatically for about a decade, was disappointed with cliffs of dover and switched to some Rise of Flight and then Condor soaring simulator ever since. I have some RL flying experience too. 300-ish hours gliding. Though unlicensed I have a fair bit of stick time in all kinds of planes, from cessna's and glassairs to a Boeing Stearman. I also have a few decades RC flying experience, anything from discus launch gliders and warbirds to FPV freestyle/racing drones. Im not a particularly gifted pilot, nor an ambitious one, Im not entirely hopeless and I think I have a broader background than most "DCS noobs".

 

So you have decades experience of various other things.... It doesn't really tell yet much than you are expected to have some basic knowledge like how to use mouse or keyboard etc. And then plenty of stuff that you would need to unlearn if something is different and you try to apply your experience to do it other way.

 

I have tried DCS several times over the past 5 or whatever years. Every time it was the same. I would load it and sit there in the cockpit thinking, now what? With pure luck and 30 minutes of trying, I got the TF-51 going, but flying a warbird alone, with no opponents and no weapons is not my idea of fun. It looked like Il2, flew not too different from IL2 just with poor framerates and no fun.

 

So you had wrong expectations and wrong approach as you were doing it as you were familiar with, and then you got frustrated because you didn't want to spend time to learn first things how to do it in this time.

 

So I would sit in the the Su25 with a russian cockpit. No frigging clue what to do. I would go to the control setup and be completely and utterly overwhelmed. I didnt even know what 90% of those binding meant, let alone what I would really need. I dont recognise any of these weapons, what if I just want some unguided bombs or rockets, what on earth are those things? I dont really have any affinity with the Su25 anyhow, so I wasnt going to spend a ton of time learning it, I would just uninstall DCS again and go have fun in IL-2, RoF or condor.

 

So you didn't want to learn anything, instead you just quickly went back to the old familiar things.

 

It wasnt until the F14 was released that I thought, I do want to learn that. And boy, did that require perseverance. Not so much the flying part, but everything else.

 

Yes, the menus, what is difference between tutorials, quick missions, custom missions and so on. When is mission editor needed, how to even add a new plane to wanted map and how to get it loaded with wanted weapons and how even get in that aircraft to fly it? And this doesn't even touch things like how to purchase the module (what is a "module"?) and how to license it (steam? Anyone?) etc.

 

When one is familiar with the premade AAA games titles that literally allows you to be in full combat situation with just couple clicks without any thinking, it is frustration for trying to apply that experience to a new system that requires many other steps to get the thing working as one is familiar. And more the person tries to rely on earlier experiences, more frustrating it becomes when it is different and there is no will to learn new things, a different ways to do things.

 

It is literally like a going to foreign country and first time when you open the door to toilet and you have unfamiliar setup there.... One expecting to do their business like they have always been familiar, can grow a frustration if the situation is on and you have zero idea how to proceed.

 

So I purchased my new toy and all I wanted to do was take off from a carrier, try and shoot my guns at some bombers or something flying in a straight line, nothing too difficult, and then most likely crash trying to land on that carrier. That was my ambition.

 

Yes, quickly to the quick action. Quickly to "the business"....

 

So I went through the built-in training to learn how to start my engines. First thing it says: you should be familiar with the cockpit, please go read that 500 page PDF. *GULP* Until then Ive never ever even read a manual for any sim -ever. But ok, this is more realistic and the F14 is more complicated than a warbird or glider, so I was willing to do some reading. So I browsed through the manual, skipped to the cockpit layout to learn at least some of the things I was looking at.

 

Well, again the problem is that if someone say "read the manual" it doesn't always mean the whole manual.

I am a odd bird one would say. As when I buy a new car, I read the manual completely. I add some labels to most common things in my experience to it, so when I need it I can quickly jump to the correct position. This means things like all liquids the vehicle use, as when you are doing the oil change you want to quickly find what you need. When you are changing the tire, you need to know how to get it out from the storage (damn French designs...) and when you are required to get the windshield wipers down to service position... (damn Spanish designs...). And of course all the important things like key code numbers etc so you can order new keys if you lose one etc etc.

 

It takes literally half to an hour to go through a 500 page manual, and you do that while even eating something. As you can skip all the most common things like how to refuel, how to change gears or turn the wheel, operate electric windows and mirrors etc etc. But all the deep technical stuff that is not obvious, is nice to be able quickly get out from manual, like how to reprogram a radio transceiver input code after each time you pull out the front panel so those two can work together.

 

Same thing is with the DCS, reading the basic manual about main menu, how to manage modules, how to do the config binding management (import/export, rebinding etc) and quickly you are going, especially if you have someone who goes things through with you.

 

First thing it talks about is G valve test button. Okay.

Then Oxygen airflow control. Fine. Do I care at this point?

Volume/TACAN panel. What is Tacan? Manual just assumes I know. Do I care ? Should I care? no idea. Volumes probably not that important

ALR-67 knob. What on earth is the ALR-67?

TACAN control panel. Still no idea what tacan is, let alone what TACAN BIT button does, except that according to the manual, it initiates TACAN BIT. Helpful! Will it help start my engines though?

ICS control panel. What is ICS? Oh, ok, its the babyphone. Dont need that do I?

AFCS control panel. Just what I needed, more acronyms. Thankfully I can figure that one out, because the panel itself is more helpful than the manual and mentions stability augmentation.

AN/ARC-159. Yeah looks like a radio. Im flying alone, why do I care.

Then more stuff i dont care about. Pictures of the actual controls. Cool, but I dont have those. I have a joystick and my throttle is kinda different. What do I need to map? What dont I need?

Picture of the throttle quadrant. I cant even figure out the damn picture! Seriously. Look at it, can you?

Then load of engine instrument gauges, the manual doesnt really explain any of them, what they mean. I dont care, Im gonna assume my brand new tomcat engines work fine and are covered by warranty.

Airspeed indicator. Now that is useful. Or will be if I ever get flying. Its a weird one though. I dont get it. Im sure Ill understand when I actually see it in use.

 

More stuff I dont care about, many, many more acronyms I have idea what they mean. I think Im done reading this "manual", Ive learned *nothing*, so I go back to the training.

 

When one has expectations that a multi million dollar forester machine works just like their WV Beetle....

 

If you have the F14 modue, I highly recommend you do the cold start training. Imagine yourself in the situation I was in, just bought the thing, wanted to take off and shoot stuff. Then follow that cold start training. Its hilarious! Goes on and on about testing lights, testing hydraulics, checking 124 numbers on dials that I dont know what they mean and there is no frigging way I can even remember 10% of that, and I have no idea which steps are really needed and which ones arent. Does anyone tell me I can just press windows+home? Nope. I only learned that a year later (true story). Does anyone tell me the few steps that really are required? Nope. Well, not the manual, not the training, thank god for youtube.

 

Yes, the lack of "You can as well cheat with automatic engine starting" thing is not much mentioned, even when it is in the module manual, the DCS manual and in the bindings.... And YouTube now is full of videos teaching the wrong things, wrong habits etc. But that is as well possible because DCS doesn't simulate damages well, it doesn't simulate malfunctions and errors. It doesn't simulate anything outside the cockpit well at all. Everything that is outside the cockpit is extremely simplified. You have no requirement ever to use an radio, or learn how to do the specific procedure when something bad happens etc.

 

DCS is very much at this point for a "point and shoot" people, who are given exactly super easy and not dangerous ground and air targets, to do what ever they want how ever they want, like take-off from carrier when ever wanted as long there is a clear path off the deck. The only limitations are in mind of the player that "I should be doing this like this", why we see all crazy things and not fun videos in youtube.

 

So I finally started the engines and aligned the INS, now what? I dont see it in the manual, I dont see a training. How do I get to the catapult? How do I attach to it? More youtube.

 

Manuals are still easy compared to NATOPS or especially many engineering manuals. One needs to learn how to read manuals as well. Give a kid a old telephone book and they have challenge to even make out how to find a specific person or service in it quickly. Once you learn the logic, it becomes very effective and fast to read. But if one doesn't never get the learning for the basics, it can be annoyingly difficult.

 

 

 

And ever since its been youtube, youtube, youtube. Googling of acronyms and then more youtube. If it werent for grim reapers, I would have long uninstalled DCS.

 

Noob friendly, my ass!

 

You just didn't have time or will to read the manual.

 

C:Program FilesDCS WorldDoc

 

Yes, it has multiple times said to the ED that is not easy to find because it is only in that directory!

There is no link to it on desktop, there is no link to it in start menu.... You need to know to open that directory and open DCS User Manual EN.pdf.

 

If it would be correctly done, the DCS main menu would have a option "Manuals" and ALL MANUALS, would be in that one place. You would literally have every single aircraft manual listed there, and clicking one will directly open your default PDF reader (commonly today a WWW browser).

 

The start menu would have link to manuals. The desktop icon for manual would be created.

 

And that is the FIRST WORST SITUATION, that player who has DCS installed, does not find the manual!

It is not enough that manual is mentioned somewhere on web page, or download page.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/world/

 

It is not even there. You can see. But after installation one can not find the manual!

 

Even the directory itself is bad! "Doc" doesn't tell ANYTHING for people. It should say "MANUAL" or at least "DOCUMENTATION" in complete word. Not as "Doc".

 

So what a common player manages to do is:

 

1) Find DCS installer page

2) Install DCS World

3) Launch DCS World

 

And that is where it hits hard if you have no experiences and no will to learn and go through.

The first steps after launching DCS World becomes challenge.

 

And this is why there should be easy "GAME MODE" to be directly accessible to switch whole DCS World mode to it in the main menu, from the main menu!

 

We should already have a very good idea that what controllers people connect to computer. Have their ID's visible and automatically load the basic profiles. And I mean basic, when I say basic.

 

So when the DCS World detects that player has a CH Throttle and Virpil Mk.3 Joystick connected, it will automatically load basic profile that has proper axis loaded to them. The basic common buttons ("Fire"; "Cannon") and such such a way that one doesn't have duplicates. Throttle is not suppose to change pitch or roll. Joystick shouldn't be having throttle or pedals in it if those are detected!

 

Right now all devices gets the basic inputs. Duplicates all over the places! Throttle and Joystick are just sharing same axis, same buttons.

 

Even a VKB box says "Official DCS World controller" or something, and there is no default official profile to be loaded in the bindings menu! One can not go to settings, input devices and load a premade profile from ED!

 

You are all alone.... Completely alone in there.

 

Why there are now videos like:

 

 

 

Sorry, that is not something that should be required per module! That should be made so clear and automatic as possible in the DCS to start.

 

And videos are always worse than written manuals, because written manuals you can skim and chimp as needed. jump to wanted position and read it elsewhere than as video.

 

It doesn't mean that there are great videos that some people truly understands there should be. And IMHO Grim Reapers are one of the worst ones you can find. Just 3/4 of the time is wasted to fool around, to explain things that shouldn't be explained at the moment, to just being mouthful for things that doesn't really matter and being like slight ADHC.

 

Here is examples of good tutorials:

 

 

Even with slight odd humor, the tutorial is exactly on the point, without being mouthful. That one minute for going through something allows you to middle of day tasks to just go it through once again. You can spend few minutes to go it through few times and you learn more than you learn from any Grim Reapers videos.

 

 

The Red Kite takes another very professional to the point approach, going more in depth than Laobi, but doesn't do fool or wrong things as Grim Reapers. You are not there to follow chat between buddies, you are not there to hear jokes or assumptions and mistakes. You want to be to learn things.

 

There is the old joke "Those who can't, teach". But teaching is actually far more difficult than doing, why teaching should be left for those who are good at it, regardless are they good or not doing. Anyone can do video tutorials, anyone can do all kind things for youtube, but many shouldn't.


Edited by Fri13

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So typical. Blame the noob. He didnt read the 1000 pages worth of manuals. He watched the wrong youtube videos, thats even better. Thats really how you get more people in to DCS and its a mindset that will do wonder for sales. Not ensuring they can learn and discover things at their own pace in an order that makes sense and allows them to have some fun while they do it.

 

A few fun facts though about that manual I never read. First of all, on my system its in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\DCSWorld\Doc A folder I browse all the time.

 

But more importantly it explains absolutely nothing that I needed to know. Anything I mentioned above. I did search for tacan, and got zero results. I searched "auto start" and got zero results. But wait, there is another manual, a controller walkthrough manual. Surely its in there? Nope. Its not in the F14 manual either, auto start, zero results. And yeah, its in the list of controls, of course it is, hidden among 546879 other keybindings for a tomcat. You expect noobs to go over literally all of them, to see if there might be something in there, that they do not even know exists - even if they will not understand what 95% of the others do ? And I dont even want auto start. I want a simple start procedure. They way I bet we all start our tomcats. I bet no one here checks their emergency hydraulic pressure !

 

Back to the DCS manual. Does it say anything about hooking up to a carrier? No, it does not. Does it even explain the communication menu how you rearm and refuel? No it does not AFAICT. 382 pages and if you read it all you wil learn about lua scripting action triggers in the mission editor, but not how you select your weapons or fuel load. Im sure the silly noob is reading the wrong manuals again!

 

And yes, the manual talks about game mode, I wasnt and am not interested in game mode. Whatever that is, I dont care. I dont want simplified flight models or weapons. I dont need to learn how to fly, I need to learn the systems. I want to be able to learn how to start my frigging engines and turn on my MFDs before learning the correct procedure to test my G suit pressure or the correct pressure readings of my emergency flight hydraulics and I shouldnt have to read 1000 pages to do something that ultimately can be explained in 2 minutes. Its not hard to start engines! Its frigging impossible to find out how without watching youtube video we shouldnt watch.


Edited by Vertigo72
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So I would sit in the the Su25 with a russian cockpit. No frigging clue what to do.

How about reading the manual :book:

 

So I purchased my new toy and all I wanted to do was take off from a carrier, try and shoot my guns at some bombers or something flying in a straight line, nothing too difficult, and then most likely crash trying to land on that carrier.

You should stick to arcade type “flying games” then instead of a simulation game like DCS.

 

 

First thing it says: you should be familiar with the cockpit, please go read that 500 page PDF. *GULP* Until then Ive never ever even read a manual for any sim -ever.

That’s because your other sims weren’t the full fidelity that DCS features.

 

Sorry to be harsh but if you can’t change your attitude then DCS is just not for you.

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