Sparrow or Sidewinder?

Yes, I’ve had trouble with them for some time. Not losing lock so much as the missile just....missing. Enemy doesn’t really do too much and he’s within 10 miles hot or flanking. Early Aim-7s didn’t perform well but later models in desert storm were quite good. In fact, the large majority of air to air kills were from sparrow missiles. Now, the Iraqis weren’t well trained pilots and I can’t say whether they made any efforts to defeat or not, but the aim-7 in game seems to perform at a level much worse than it should be IMHO

This isn't totally related to Sidewinder v Sparrow, but this gives amazing first hand insight into the shootdown of a Syrian Su-22 by VFA-87:

Yes, I’ve had trouble with them for some time. Not losing lock so much as the missile just....missing. Enemy doesn’t really do too much and he’s within 10 miles hot or flanking. Early Aim-7s didn’t perform well but later models in desert storm were quite good. In fact, the large majority of air to air kills were from sparrow missiles. Now, the Iraqis weren’t well trained pilots and I can’t say whether they made any efforts to defeat or not, but the aim-7 in game seems to perform at a level much worse than it should be IMHO

Perhaps we've been underestimating the AI's response to missiles. It isn't very good at air combat maneuvering and rarely wins a gun fight, but perhaps ED has improved their situational awareness and anti-missile flight profiles in some respects, maybe too much in some. I will have to study its behavior more closely as I approach for a launch and afterwards. I wonder if a lot of those Iraqi pilots didn't just fly straight into the sparrows.

I have to admit that some of this thread is over my head so I am obviously not real good that this. But, yeah, for me AIM7s suck. I do single player only and use the missions that are available for the 18 in Caucuses and Persian Gulf maps. If the mission launches from the Stennis, I automatically re-arm and get rid of the 7s. If it starts in the air I usually just jettison them to clean up the plane. I keep trying to use 7s initially using the radar attack screen, and slewing the TDC and shooting. I believe they can shoot from further away than a 9 so I wait til they are at 20 miles and shoot. The usual result is that at least they are off the plane now. They never hit anything AND, when I switch to 9M or 9X there is a ton of crap all over the hud. Squares and diamonds moving all around and the small circle to aim the 9 is moving all over too. I always switch the sensor to the hud, I pound the crap out of the deselect key, I switch to A to G and back to A to A, anything I can think off to get the moving crap off the hud and let me shoot the 9. Sometimes the hud will clear to normal and sometimes I just get shot down. For me a 9 is maybe 80-85% effective (9x better than other 9s) and a 120 is 95% and 7s are close to zero.

CBstu, I would really recommend taking the time to learn what the diamonds and junk mean on the screen. I will tell that that launching an AIM-7 at a target 20 miles away is almost always guaranteed to miss, unless the target is hot (headed right at you). Learn to use the circle in the middle and the indicators moving around the edges. Those tell you when you are within the “high probability kill zone” (basically) for the missle. Takes into account all factors. I usually end up launching an AIM-7 about 10 miles away. Maybe hit 40% of the time

But look, even if you don’t hit, you are “shaping the battlefield”. My firing that AIm-7, you compel your target to evade. When he evades, he loses

Energy and also cannot fire at you. So when you get into Aim-9 range, you are in a better position

Don’t give up. Launch later and follow up

CBstu, I would really recommend taking the time to learn what the diamonds and junk mean on the screen. I will tell that that launching an AIM-7 at a target 20 miles away is almost always guaranteed to miss, unless the target is hot (headed right at you). Learn to use the circle in the middle and the indicators moving around the edges. Those tell you when you are within the “high probability kill zone” (basically) for the missle. Takes into account all factors. I usually end up launching an AIM-7 about 10 miles away. Maybe hit 40% of the time

 

But look, even if you don’t hit, you are “shaping the battlefield”. My firing that AIm-7, you compel your target to evade. When he evades, he loses

Energy and also cannot fire at you. So when you get into Aim-9 range, you are in a better position

 

Don’t give up. Launch later and follow up

I am trying this. I will keep at it and especially try shooting from closer range. I decided yesterday after I typed my post that I was maybe a little on the off the wall side so watched a couple of youtube tutorials then fired up DCS and flew one of the missions specifically for the 7. 4-5 tries and still not very good. I 'think' I read somewhere that the 7 requires guidance from the plane the entire way until impact. So a few shots I did that. Felt like I was flying w/ a -Ok shoot me- sign on the side of the plane for 20-30 seconds which is an eternity. But they did seem to hit more often. Is this correct? I hope not. With 120s I use the hud and the sensor select switch. I pull the trigger when I get the 'shoot', I hit the sensor select and the hud moves away from that target, gives me the dashed circle and locks onto which ever target I place in the circle and I shoot on the shoot command. One of the missions has a flight of 2 Mig 29s and 4 Su?? coming at us. A lot of times I can hit all 6 planes using the above technique basically as fast as I can steer to line up the next target. As I said above the 120s hit maybe 95% and the 7s (using the same technique) hit maybe 10%.

Yes. The Aim-7 is a semi-active missile. That means you have to maintain an STT lock on the target the whole time. It’s NOT like the Aim-120 which eventually goes “Pitbull” and uses it’s own seeker. The Aim-7 is a much older missile but is still quite useful in a furball. It will only hit the aircraft you target. The AMRAAM, once it activates its own radar, can lock onto any plane in its field of vision...even a friendly.

I will say that if you are waiting 30 seconds for the Aim-7 to hit, you’re still launching too far away. You get a “shoot” cue when the target is in range....but that’s “in range against a non-maneuvering target”. You want to place the steering dot inside your range circle and wait until the “shoot” cue starts flashing. That means the target is within fatal range; meaning even if the target maneuvers or turns cold, a hit is still likely. I would never launch over 10 miles away unless the bad guy is headed right at you really fast

...The Aim-7 is a much older missile but is still quite useful in a furball. It will only hit the aircraft you target...

Not sure I get this. It may be because I have been too far away but there are quite often more than one target plane in the circle and it picks which one to lock onto itself. In the provided missions they are usually approaching in either pairs or flights of 4. In either case one needs to be very close to pick which one to lock onto vs the 7 makes it's own choice.

Yup, this seems to mostly be a DCS-ism. IRL, the Sparrow can track any target caught in the PDI beam, which at longer ranges can be quite wide. I'm not sure to what extent this is modeled in the game.

But just the idea that launching MRMs at an aircraft currently involved in a dogfight with a friendly would be a common enough occurrence to be notable seems like an artifact of DCS air-quake multiplayer gameplay.

They never hit anything AND, when I switch to 9M or 9X there is a ton of crap all over the hud. Squares and diamonds moving all around and the small circle to aim the 9 is moving all over too.

Haha, yeah that's my gripe with NATO aircraft. While I've been flying the F-18 exclusively as of late, having taken the time to learn what all those symbols mean, I've always been a Flanker pilot at heart. I still vastly prefer the Su-27's clean hud and SA despite it being more primitive. Sure, the F-18 provides you with a lot more information, but a lot of it seems redundant and clutters up the hud. I find myself darting my eyes from the SA page to the radar scope back to the hud. It can get a little disorienting. The only thing that really sucks on the Flanker and Fulcrum is the SPO-15 RWR. However, it's still functional and I've gotten used to the watching the pips when I have an incoming missile to know exactly when to dodge.

To put it plainly, I would much rather fly the Flanker if the opposing F-18 doesn't have AIM-120s.

I should clarify. I didn’t mean to suggest shooting at an enemy plane that was near a friendly. What I was describing was a situation where the fight includes friendlies. If you shoot an AMRAAM and miss, it will still be lookinG for a new target in its field of view. I’m suggesting that using the Aim-7 allows you to shoot and know that if you miss, you don’t have a missile flying around looking for a new target. Additionally, if you are concerned you might hit a friendly, just drop lock and the sparrow goes dumb. The AMRAAM will still happily seek out a shiny metal thing

So it’s less about using it like a sniper rifle and more about knowing I can drop lock and the missles becomes a rocket if I miss the target or a friendly swoops in

I'm surprised we don't lose more aircraft in situations like these. A MiG-21 (or really just about anything) is about as likely to kill an F-18 as vice versa.

No it isn't. The F-18 is far more likely to end a lower capability aircraft. The MiG-21s didn't have any positioning or SA advantage. The choice to get close is based on a number of factors, including the threat level ... DCS doesn't represent any of this well.

No it isn't. The F-18 is far more likely to end a lower capability aircraft. The MiG-21s didn't have any positioning or SA advantage. The choice to get close is based on a number of factors, including the threat level ... DCS doesn't represent any of this well.

Even if you take the BVR and SA advantage away from the Hornet - it is still far superior to the Mig-21 in every way and should win any fight hand’s down, fi flown correctly.

I've been really struggling with the "Ode to Mongo" mission too, finding the same problems as everyone else.

I guess given what has already been said, I'm interested in how is everyone else intereacting with your flight in this mission because in the rare event that Itake out the first two 21's, I'm Nigel no friends after this and therfore I'm essentially a sitting duck for whatever comes my way over the target area.

No it isn't. The F-18 is far more likely to end a lower capability aircraft. The MiG-21s didn't have any positioning or SA advantage. The choice to get close is based on a number of factors, including the threat level ... DCS doesn't represent any of this well.

To me it seems like the F-18 pilots were surprised by the AWACS callout based on what I've read and were basically committed (or thought they were). My only point is that if you're close enough to fire sidewinders, A MiG-21 (as well many, many other aircraft) is close enough to fire on you. It's obvious that in real life situations where a visual ID is required, the pilots would be routed to the best possible position and given as much information as possible.

But if I'm staring a MiG-21 head-on, closing for a fox 2, and he sees me, the outcome is not certain at all. I understand that US strategy and tactics are there to prevent this situation.

Even if you take the BVR and SA advantage away from the Hornet - it is still far superior to the Mig-21 in every way and should win any fight hand’s down, fi flown correctly.

Sorry, I very much disagree, at least I would never say "far superior." The F-18 is a superior aircraft because of BVR, better SA, better avionics overall. Take that away and it's really up to what the missiles decide to end up doing. If the flights merge, then the F-18's better turn rate and AoA tolerance will help line up another shot much faster, but that doesn't mean you can't simply get blown out of the sky by a MiG's first volley of missiles. So no, a neutered F-18 should not be expected to win a "fight hands down." Its better flight characteristics do not make it missile proof.

I've been really struggling with the "Ode to Mongo" mission too, finding the same problems as everyone else.

 

I guess given what has already been said, I'm interested in how is everyone else intereacting with your flight in this mission because in the rare event that Itake out the first two 21's, I'm Nigel no friends after this and therfore I'm essentially a sitting duck for whatever comes my way over the target area.

I don't know. For some reason your wingman isn't on the radio list if you're using simplified communications (the \ key). I could be missing something simple. Communications and how it's integrated into a mission is the final frontier for me with the F-18. My wingman usually figures it out and engages on his own but ends up wasting his sparrows at long range. If he survives, he seems to proceed immediately to the bomb target, usually getting shot down by a SAM in the process.

The other SEAD flight engages the air defenses on their own, but they seem to take their sweet time. After splashing both MiGs, I usually circle around a few times outside the target area to wait for the HARMs to do their job before I head in with the bombs.