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Improving utilisation of training aircraft


tom1502

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I’ve been thinking about this for some time and decided to write down my thoughts on the matter. How could ERD allow greater utilisation of the trainers?

 

https://79vraf.wordpress.com/2018/08/05/dcs-trainers-are-they-missing-a-trick/

 

I’d really like to be able to use them for their originally intended purpose with new recruits and get them up to a certain level before they progressed with us at EAF, it’s not yet possible without both players owning the module, but maybe there is something that ED could do...I can live in hope!

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I think you are 100% right in your observation. As I see it, ED should have bundled these with the core game. Yak and L-39 would make DCS properly wholesome.

 

ED and Lead Pursuit are virtually the only developers that've struggled with this. In Microsoft's FS series and other flight sims, you've had the luxury of fairly high-fidelity aircraft that range from simple trainers to more complex multiengines. They include less and more advanced training courses, they rate their missions in terms of difficulty, and they narrow them in scope. I don't think these civilian-focused developers choose those airframes because they want some arbitrary selection of "small-to-big", but because, as many of them as experienced pilots know, you have to learn the ropes. The Su-25 is clickless and a far cry from a good learning experience. The TF-51 is absolutely not the first aircraft you'd like to learn to get the basics of flight.

 

Simulators exist because we can't access the real thing, be it for lack of money, for fear of our own lives, that we lack prerequisite knowledge, or it's in other ways inaccessible. It's gotten to the point where DCS modules are so complex, they could do with their own simulators because they are in fact inaccessible.

 

This point is probably not something that resonates with many daily/weekly users of DCS, because they -do- have that prerequisite knowledge. But, as anyone who's first experience with DCS was the A-10C knows, that was a damned high threshold. Many are the ones that've given up before even switching MFDs, and those people were potential customers for all these other modules.

 

It's ok to say that no, the threshold should be 'this' high. That the learning curve should be 'X' steep. But it doesn't make a ton of sense to say that and still produce separate trainer aircraft modules.

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I still think it is counter productive to require the student pilot to own the module to fly in it in non-solo operations. Provided one of the two operators own the module this should be sufficient.

 

I have seen it many, many times: "Hey, want to try DCS?" "Sure, but I don't know how to fly that well." "If you buy a training module I can help you." "$50 to buy a tutorial so I can spend another $50 for the airplane I actually want later? No thanks. I'll put the F-19 Super Killer now instead and just figure it out!" Every time.

 

By trying to collect money from everyone they collect money from no one.

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no excuse really, su25 is the best to start on and slowly move to tf with clickable cockpit and more control needed. Yak is not easy, handling is too fast for noobs, not seeing the runway ahead is a no/no, L39 will crash them asap :)) as a begginer you want a plane with slow rate ailerons, steady flight, steady power, autopilot, predictable behaviour, easy to use cockpit, airbrakes and/or parachute, great visibility over the nose ! yet again one gamer that only touched war thunder & other arcade needs first serious time in civilian sims like fsx/p3d/xplane


Edited by vali_grad

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no excuse really, su25 is the best to start on and slowly move to tf with clickable cockpit and more control needed. Yak is not easy, handling is too fast for noobs, not seeing the runway ahead is a no/no, L39 will crash them asap :)) as a begginer you want a plane with slow rate ailerons, steady flight, steady power, autopilot, predictable behaviour, easy to use cockpit, airbrakes and/or parachute, great visibility over the nose ! yet again one gamer that only touched war thunder & other arcade needs first serious time in civilian sims like fsx/p3d/xplane

 

If the trainers are so bad for training why does everyone use them for training? :noexpression:

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I find this whole debate a bit pointless. The reason why trainers exist in real life is because students can not afford to make deadly mistakes, and trainers are supposed to be easy to fly and provide a good learning experience. Having said that, you can buy the F/A-18, crash it on your first takeoff and nobody will care. This notion of trainer aircraft in sims is ridiculous. Simulator were conceived as an instrument of training, so we don't need to do it again. Sure, you'll probably become a better pilot if you work your way up from the Yak-52 to the L-39 and then over to any of the more advanced birds, but it's by no means a prerequisite. I often see people recommend the F-5 as a first module because it's "easy to fly and a good trainer". Why? Say if you only had the money for one module, the Hornet would absolutely be my first recommendation just because of its versatility. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with trainers in DCS. In fact, I'm very glad that there is both a Yak-52 and an L-39 module because I have great personal interest in these aircraft, but suggesting a newbie to buy a plane to "learn how to fly" is counterproductive in my opinion.

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I find this whole debate a bit pointless. The reason why trainers exist in real life is because students can not afford to make deadly mistakes, and trainers are supposed to be easy to fly and provide a good learning experience. Having said that, you can buy the F/A-18, crash it on your first takeoff and nobody will care. This notion of trainer aircraft in sims is ridiculous. Simulator were conceived as an instrument of training, so we don't need to do it again. Sure, you'll probably become a better pilot if you work your way up from the Yak-52 to the L-39 and then over to any of the more advanced birds, but it's by no means a prerequisite. I often see people recommend the F-5 as a first module because it's "easy to fly and a good trainer". Why? Say if you only had the money for one module, the Hornet would absolutely be my first recommendation just because of its versatility. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with trainers in DCS. In fact, I'm very glad that there is both a Yak-52 and an L-39 module because I have great personal interest in these aircraft, but suggesting a newbie to buy a plane to "learn how to fly" is counterproductive in my opinion.

 

I get the point, but some people want the full realistic learning experience. I would have loved to have someone teach me how to properly fly in a multicrew trainer before I learned the A-10C some years ago by just reading and crashing. Though I do think it would be nice if someone new to the game didn't also have to buy the aircraft. Having one person have the aircraft and the other being able to learn would probably bring more people in to HI-FI modules.

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the best solution would be to give those birds (l39 and yak52) to dcs world as starting aircraft.

With this you'd be able to use the l39 not only as trainer, but to "show" others the world of flight, by just telling them "download this, hop on my plane and lets rumble a bit" ;)

I bought the l39, and i love it really much, and i wouldn't mind that even after i paid for it, it would be a free module afterwards.

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If the trainers are so bad for training why does everyone use them for training? :noexpression:

because they are cheap in every way possible, I'm talking about posibility in DCS without breaking the bank :)if you suck at it, better not invest and look somewhere else ...an informed choice :)

Su34 & F111 a dream fullfilled in fsx...[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

i5 5600, 1050ti, 16 GVram, win10 , TM W hotas&rudder, waiting for 1060/1070 price fall or a new gpu family..f*&9 miners :)

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Do you mean real operators or DCS users? Because DCS use for training is rare by my experience.

 

It was a half joke but I was speaking about generally. If those planes are so bad to train with why do they train with them IRL? Agreed though that DCS training is rare. I just said that in reply to

 

Yak is not easy, handling is too fast for noobs, not seeing the runway ahead is a no/no, L39 will crash them asap ) as a begginer you want a plane with slow rate ailerons, steady flight, steady power, autopilot, predictable behaviour, easy to use cockpit, airbrakes and/or parachute, great visibility over the nose

 

The trainers in DCS are perfectly capable for use as trainers for DCS. I wish more people would use them instead of FC3 and actually learn how to pilot an aircraft. It would really help them out when they progress.

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Per reality, cost. And cost is exactly why they are not capable in DCS. You can't use a trainer to train if no one is willing to buy the thing.

 

and exactly this is the reason to use them as free modules in DCS.

Otherwise there is little sense in having them (especially for new DCS users, who want to fly the F18 and pew pew pew enemies ...!)

 

I wish more people would use them instead of FC3 and actually learn how to pilot an aircraft. It would really help them out when they progress.

 

and this is very much true in my eyes!

for me the appeal in DCS are the full fidelity modules.

I tried the free Su25 module ... but i was not happy at all. not because the plane is too slow or whatever.

for me there was some sort of invisible wall between the cockpit and me. I couldn't "touch" anything and therefore i fealt a distance.

 

In my eyes the L39 would be the best module to give players for free... good to learn, has weapons, is not too slow ...

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Yes, maybe. But we have l-39 and yak-52 in dcs Simply because someone asked ED to produce them for training purposes, and they decided to make a dcs version, since they were already There and the conversion process was cheap and Easy. I like l-39 for free "civilian" Flight in dcs environment (never used za version) and Yes, maybe the best and only free Plane to include for free in dcs would be the l-39, but unfortunately It is not this way and probably Will never be.

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... but unfortunately It is not this way and probably Will never be.

 

 

you are right maybe, but it does not mean this cannot be changed.

up to a certain point the p51 was only payware.

now we have the civil version of this plane included in dcs world as free full fidelity module.

 

why shouldn't it be possible to -at least- include the C version of the L39 in the game?

 

things can change, if all want it to ;)

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I wish more people would use them instead of FC3 and actually learn how to pilot an aircraft. It would really help them out when they progress.

 

How did YOU start virtual flying? And I extend this question to everyone in this thread, especially those who think we should steer beginners towards Yaks and Albatrosses.

 

I didn't start it by studying a long and dry manual for a frankly not very exciting trainer. I started in a low fidelity (at least by today's standards) simulator of the F/A-18, and all the pew pew stirred my curiosity and motivated me to learn more. I was an excitable teen (yes, that was a long time ago :lol:) and if someone had told me to read a few hundred pages of system diagrams, gauge descriptions and SOPs, I would have most certainly given up.

 

And that's the big risk in introducing a beginner into DCS or flight sims in general. Not them crashing, learning inefficiently or even picking up some bad habits. The main risk is them getting bored and frustrated and quitting.

 

So tell beginners to get something cool and exciting! Dogfights, blowing stuff up, acrobatics etc. are exciting. Checklists, traffic patterns, point to point navigation isn't... OK, it is to us nerds, but not to a newbie wanting to play out their Top Gun fantasy ;).

 

Starting out with FC3 and in the future MAC will be perfect for most beginners. The "Soviet pilot of the 1980s" roleplaying game is really our own fantasy rather than what most beginners want.

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definetely ... my first 'sim' was early 90s ... my first 'real air combat sim' was janes us navy fighters ... after that IL2 sturmovik and now DCS.

True that i learned 'flying' there, but how to operate the birds "correctly" - this i learned only in DCS ...

 

No I i don't want to have new players study 500 pages of manuals, but show them what the sim is able to do.

The L39 is the perfect start, you 'can' blow up things, but it is a nice and easy jet to start with.

Getting in the air is done in just a handful of buttons, and if you use the arcarde-ish startup then even less.

 

i think the l39 would be a much better representation of the sim itself.

if you only judge by the su25 - i wouldn't have been impressed at all ... and the tf-51 module is too hard for newbies as well ...

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My major gripe for non-combat operations is the the lack of nav aides in place. When I've got 6 TACAN's and a handful of NDB's to fly with, I'm much less motivated to go fly cross country or shoot approaches. Yes I can do pattern work and all, but it certainly seems "sterile" comparatively.

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The L39 is the perfect start, you 'can' blow up things, but it is a nice and easy jet to start with.

Getting in the air is done in just a handful of buttons, and if you use the arcarde-ish startup then even less.

 

The L-39 is easy to start up but it is also quite challenging to fly as jets go. Dynamic stalls are vicious, the engine is slow to spool up and generally underpowered, landing is challenging due to bad forward visibility, taxiing requires finesse... not an easy aircraft to learn at all and with a limited pay off at the end. The combat capabilities are pretty token and there's barely any content (missions, campaigns) included in the package.

 

And yet people keep recommending it as a first purchase to new player. It baffles me why...

 

i think the l39 would be a much better representation of the sim itself.

if you only judge by the su25 - i wouldn't have been impressed at all ... and the tf-51 module is too hard for newbies as well ...

 

The purpose of the freebies is to let you get a feel for the variety and possibilities of DCS and the two planes we have now do a fine job. Keep in mind that SSM aircraft are and will continue to be a part of DCS, whether they are your thing or not. If there's anything missing from the free lineup, it's a helicopter. This is where DCS really shines compared to the competition and it's a shame they aren't showing it off.

 

I like the original idea to allow people to join the crew of an aircraft they don't own. Would definitely give the Yak and the Alb more purpose.

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Yes, maybe. But we have l-39 and yak-52 in dcs Simply because someone asked ED to produce them for training purposes, and they decided to make a dcs version, since they were already There and the conversion process was cheap and Easy. I like l-39 for free "civilian" Flight in dcs environment (never used za version) and Yes, maybe the best and only free Plane to include for free in dcs would be the l-39, but unfortunately It is not this way and probably Will never be.

the za variant is heavier, packs a bigger punch, you're missing a lot...I use the C version only with axes and flight controls only, just for gps leisure :) because it is lighter :)

Su34 & F111 a dream fullfilled in fsx...[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

i5 5600, 1050ti, 16 GVram, win10 , TM W hotas&rudder, waiting for 1060/1070 price fall or a new gpu family..f*&9 miners :)

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What Imp says is reasonable: you try su-25t (maybe not so appealing at the beginning, but IMHO the best FC3 Plane at the end) and a clickable cockpit with tf-51, but at the end if you are a newbie you want to try f-15 and su-27. If you don't get quickly bored with FC3, After a while you want to try something more and you buy One clickable Plane, and then you become dcs addicted. The starting free lineup is good. Yes, maybe It lacks a copter, but copters are more difficult to fly and I see them as a second step. Yes, maybe they could allow people to join multicrew airplanes online, even if they don't own.

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I questioned this some time ago. It would be good even if one person had the module to allow someone to join them in the second cockpit. This would give them the thrill of flying and get them hooked to the sim. My brother was put off as he was unsure after I realised he couldnt join unless he had the module and he didnt want to spend money to find it wasnt for him.

 

Lets hope ED takes note

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Of course, One of the two crew members must own the module, the other could be invited as "guest": he Can fly only online and only if the owner of the module is sit in One of the two seats, the other being occupied by the "guest". I could have my Brother (Who plays only FC3 occasionally and thinks 50 bucks are too much for a single aircraft) to try a clickable cockpit and to fly either as pilot or instructor. He could fall in love with clickable modules more easily than how he Can now only with tf-51.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well I've improved the utilization of my L-39ZA by using it in its RL role as a light attack AC. So I've no regrets of buying the package at full price, because it really is an awesome little plane.

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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