Finally flying but can't land

Without smashing off the tail boom.

It seems like the helo does not like to lose altitude and airspeed.

Anyway, if anyone has advice for mastering this, I appreciate it.

Without smashing off the tail boom.

 

It seems like the helo does not like to lose altitude and airspeed.

 

Anyway, if anyone has advice for mastering this, I appreciate it.

Take it easy! Descent must be slow... You are entering VRS or dropping to tarmac too hard. There is a dial top right of commander pilot dash which is for use when hovering or at very slow speeds. 20 kph or so. It shows your drift/speed forward backward, left and right. On the left of that dial is a better VSI which is much more accurate, and responsive to your real Vertical speed. But it only works at slow speeds. It is designed for landing, hovering, sling loading, troop pick-ups/drop-offs without full landing, etc.

So make sure your VSI reads less than 5 metres per second, better at about 3. Be patient.... When the fuselage starts to shake, then you are in the right state, but keep it slow. Remember, this chopper is a big bus, not a sports car or even an estate car. It is heavy, and has momentum.

You must bring it to a gentle hover to land it, but you can also make a running landing on the wheels. Just not too fast!

Without smashing off the tail boom.

 

It seems like the helo does not like to lose altitude and airspeed.

 

Anyway, if anyone has advice for mastering this, I appreciate it.

I'm not really "mastering" it, but I noticed that the Mi-8 doesn't like to be landed vertically.

To me it seems like it gets into VRS much easier than the Huey.

Instead I have had more luck with flying it in for landing like a fixed wing aircraft:

Keep it at speed with a not too steep glide slope, get it near the ground, slow down and hover.

Thanks for the advice. My tail boom bust-off ratio is down to about 8 for 10.

I'm going to experiment with these suggestions.

I am watching the VVI and I can keep it a 2 or 3, then it jumps very suddenly down to 6 or 7, I hit VRS 10' off the ground, drop, and smash it up.

Keep at it Fargo. I probably had about 40 hours on the Hip before I started to feel reasonably happy with the landings. And I'd stress "reasonably".

As said, vertical speed is the key, keep it below 5ms. The problem is that the main Vertical Speed Indicator can be slow to respond while the radar VSI fluctuates with changes in attitude and can give misleading readings.

I love the Hip but I felt it was ( of the aircraft I've used ) the one that requires the most concentration, this is a bird that most wants to kill you, and landings are where it is most likely to get you.

Have you run into the other problem I had, of trying to slow down and gaining hundred feet of altitude in the process?

 

So make sure your VSI reads less than 5 metres per second, better at about 3. Be patient.... When the fuselage starts to shake, then you are in the right state, but keep it slow. Remember, this chopper is a big bus, not a sports car or even an estate car. It is heavy, and has momentum.

+1 :thumbup:

Keep at it Fargo. I probably had about 40 hours on the Hip before I started to feel reasonably happy with the landings. And I'd stress "reasonably".

 

As said, vertical speed is the key, keep it below 5ms. The problem is that the main Vertical Speed Indicator can be slow to respond while the radar VSI fluctuates with changes in attitude and can give misleading readings.

 

I love the Hip but I felt it was ( of the aircraft I've used ) the one that requires the most concentration, this is a bird that most wants to kill you, and landings are where it is most likely to get you.

 

Have you run into the other problem I had, of trying to slow down and gaining hundred feet of altitude in the process?

Yessir. If someone's had a problem in the hip, I've had it too.

Another one is instant generator failure. I set up a mission where I am in level flight and as soon as I start, BAM - generator failure.

The generators do fail a lot don't they

If I flew the Hip in Real Life I'd have taped the autopilot button down, the number of times I've had to reset it in flight.

I'd say, standard, barometric VVI on the left is good enough and easier to read. I don't even bother with the right, Doppler one, even though yes, it's indeed much more precise. What's its the precision good for, however, if the pilot's reactions are not fast enough? When you're descending vertically and you hit 3 m/s don't wait for it to jump further, but start raising collective already. Anticipate what's going to happen and act ahead of the chopper.

Generators going off in air-start missions are a bit more annoying though. I do use "synchronize controls with HOTAS" option, and I alway make sure the throttle is at max, while collective is low before hitting "Fly" button, but still, rotor likes to droop anyway causing generators failure. Fortunately, air-start missions are a tiny fraction of my all flights - no problems while starting from the ground.

Remember that the VSI for the Hip is in m/s not feet/s.

Initially, try to separate your descent from your transition into hover, as in: descend to ~50' AGL, and THEN as a separate action transition to hover.

Another suggestion is to start with less fuel. A light hip is amazing performance-wise.

I'd say, standard, barometric VVI on the left is good enough and easier to read. I don't even bother with the right, Doppler one, even though yes, it's indeed much more precise. What's its the precision good for, however, if the pilot's reactions are not fast enough? When you're descending vertically and you hit 3 m/s don't wait for it to jump further, but start raising collective already. Anticipate what's going to happen and act ahead of the chopper.

.

+1 with this. when you pass -3 expect shaking and act. If it happens fast don't expect... react. smoothly but promptly. And expect everything to need attention, not just collective ;) .

I consider generators failure annunciator as a gentle reminder to not repeat that.

@fargo007

Here is on huge mistake (jump to 1:26). You can see I hesitate as the sink rate stays a bit at -3 but I forgot I had cargo bellow me, at -5 I still was hoping it will calm down as I was already out of transition and thought it will get into hover sooner or later. Year right...

PS after a huge frak up... don't fight the spin. You eat power if you do. Let her bite you a bit... she's just mad... :)

the best tip I can offer is take it slow at first and practice some more..

I'm showing much better thanks to the advice here.

The mental approach to this bird that succeeded was:

Not hundreds, not twenties, not even dollars or quarters..... SLIVERS OF A PENNY.

That video is amazing. Wow.

No place close to tackling cargo.

I did set up a mission with an iranian guard tower (yeah, in the caucasus) with infanry around it and worked on my gun runs until I could smoke them all with rockets, 12.7, or 7.62.

Rockets were by FAR the winner, followed by 7.62.

This is my new obsession.

:-)

[...]There is a dial top right of commander pilot dash which is for use when hovering or at very slow speeds. 20 kph or so. It shows your drift/speed forward backward, left and right. On the left of that dial is a better VSI which is much more accurate, and responsive to your real Vertical speed. But it only works at slow speeds. It is designed for landing, hovering, sling loading, troop pick-ups/drop-offs without full landing, etc. [...]

Oh, thanks...I never noticed the VSI indicator there (only the slow speed indicator). Great advise - and it's indeed a lot more responsive as I just noticed.

Mi-8 Dials

Oh, thanks...I never noticed the VSI indicator there (only the slow speed indicator). Great advise - and it's indeed a lot more responsive as I just noticed.

Hi Rge75,

Thanks.

Also, the other dial to keep an eye on is the engine power dial, mid left side of pilot dashboard. Gizzy taught me about this one recently. If the power indicator drops below 90%, then things soon start to go wrong. This is caused by applying too much torque/collective too quickly, stressing the engines, causing rotor droop, loss of lift and this is when the generators fail, temporarily albeit.

The Mi-8 has a ton of power. But one has to allow for it to build up. So I have been being taught by Gizzy some great lessons on managing these aspects. The key is smooth and gentle, but decisive.... And learn instrument scanning. ASI, VSI, Torque, Power, Pitch... ASI, VSI, Torque, Power, Pitch... ASI, VSI, Torque, Power, Pitch... There are several various versions of instrument scanning. See here, http://www.flightlearnings.com/2015/02/12/instrument-flight/ Changed the way I fly in DCS.

But I am just a student, sharing what I am learning. There are some real pilots out here who will tell you better than I.

Thanks for the additional hints. I'm glad you told me because I sometimes have the generator issues. It became a lot better since I'm more careful with the collective, but sometimes it still happens. I'm not completely sure which instrument you're talking about though? The Main Rotor Tachometer or the Two-Pointer Engine Tachometer?

The instrumental scanning is something I'll try to adapt. So far I'd say I'm pretty fixed onto the instrument I'm currently needing (unless I fly the Huey in dark/foggy condition). So there's for sure room for improvement. But (especially with the Huey where I have many flight hours) I tend to fly by visual and by "experience" w/o checking the instruments that carefully.

Rotor tacho is more important in this case, because both generators are mounted on rotor gearbox and they go offline when rotor RPM drops to about 90-92% If I recall correctly (so you can see there's not so much RPM to spare).

Thanks, I just tried it out when the Hip was heavily loaded. The rotor RMP indeed dropped more and more (below 80%) and it wasn't possible to take off. When I lowered the collective, the RPM recovered again.

Thanks, I just tried it out when the Hip was heavily loaded. The rotor RMP indeed dropped more and more (below 80%) and it wasn't possible to take off. When I lowered the collective, the RPM recovered again.

When heavily loaded you have to use translational lift to take off. Travelling forward generates lift in the rotor, becoming like a disk shaped wing.

All the advice here was spot on.

I'm up to being able to land successfully on a runway 9/10, and maybe 6/10 on the top of a large building, 3/10 on a small one.

In case others find this, here's what helped so far, in no particular order:

1 - Adding a curve to the stick and rudder really helped me stop all the overcorrecting I was doing. I'm in the 25-50 range, still experimenting.

2 - Planning, Planning, Planning. I would set a goal of what altitude and speed to be at by the time I reached a certain point.

3 - Reduce altitude first, then worry about airspeed. One thing that is very hard for a sim to deliver is spatial orientation. I frequently believe I'm a lot lower than I am and transition into a hover way too high. It's easy to go around again, and is better than pressing a bad position.

4 - When landing - You can't take your eyes off that VSI for a second. Seriously. It should be called "the landing gauge."

I've been zooming in so that it's as large as possible. Actually considering using helios to add it to another monitor, but I wonder if I'm in a phase where I just don't have the hang of her yet. I said "no particular order" but this has proven to be the one responsible for almost every failed landing I had. My number 1 pick.

5 - I sweat every single landing. Regardless of how easy it looks. The best ones turn shitwise in a split second.

Mi-8 yodas - Let me know if my thinking is on the right track here.

Maybe call VSI puckering level :D

The other thing and I haven't flown the Mi8 (Yet) but for the others I tend to listen to the rotors and turbine which convey a lot of information about the aircraft state.

Maybe call VSI puckering level :D

 

The other thing and I haven't flown the Mi8 (Yet) but for the others I tend to listen to the rotors and turbine which convey a lot of information about the aircraft state.

VRS (what you monitor VSI for) doesn't have any turbine audio indication I believe, but you will see/hear a slight buffett upon entry.

Audio queues are essential for maintaining rotor velocity though, which keeps your electric system operational.

All the advice here was spot on.

 

I'm up to being able to land successfully on a runway 9/10, and maybe 6/10 on the top of a large building, 3/10 on a small one.

 

In case others find this, here's what helped so far, in no particular order:

 

1 - Adding a curve to the stick and rudder really helped me stop all the overcorrecting I was doing. I'm in the 25-50 range, still experimenting.

 

2 - Planning, Planning, Planning. I would set a goal of what altitude and speed to be at by the time I reached a certain point.

 

3 - Reduce altitude first, then worry about airspeed. One thing that is very hard for a sim to deliver is spatial orientation. I frequently believe I'm a lot lower than I am and transition into a hover way too high. It's easy to go around again, and is better than pressing a bad position.

 

4 - When landing - You can't take your eyes off that VSI for a second. Seriously. It should be called "the landing gauge."

 

I've been zooming in so that it's as large as possible. Actually considering using helios to add it to another monitor, but I wonder if I'm in a phase where I just don't have the hang of her yet. I said "no particular order" but this has proven to be the one responsible for almost every failed landing I had. My number 1 pick.

 

5 - I sweat every single landing. Regardless of how easy it looks. The best ones turn shitwise in a split second.

 

Mi-8 yodas - Let me know if my thinking is on the right track here.

You're on the right track, and keep practicing. If you find yourself in VRS and not too low, you can recover by dropping collective, pitching nose down, to enter forward movement again, pull collective and move out of the dead air. You can do it sideways too. You just gotta get out of the downwash which is killing your lift. You are dropping faster than your rotor can lift in turbulent air.

Try not to get instrument fixated, you need to use them all. And feel it too. Audio cues as mentioned are part of that, look for a certain cockpit shake too, and the sudden loss of control and lift beyond that shake. Hold your nerve, and ride the shake into a landing.

It will come, and it sounds like you are getting there. Come fly with us over at BlackSharkDen, get some in flight instruction too. :helpsmilie: is at hand!:thumbup:

VRS (what you monitor VSI for) doesn't have any turbine audio indication I believe, but you will see/hear a slight buffett upon entry.

True but I never said that, I was referring to the relationship of VSI to puckering especially when VSI suddenly increases. :D

Audio queues are essential for maintaining rotor velocity though, which keeps your electric system operational.

Although with Huey and Gazelle the sound of the blades changes with load state and if you listen carefully you can tell what the aircraft is doing or about to do. ;)

Whilst I'm still only learning KA50 iI'm sure it applies to others as well. :thumbup: