Harlikwin Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 The one using m/c is climb rate I'm assuming thats meter/second (where C is seconds in the other graphs? Cyril and Methodius didn't get to spread their messed up letters in my part of the world ;) we used the real ones. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat155 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Yea, that's meters per second. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverStratos Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 And those tables still doesn't show entirely the performance of the MiG-23MLA. Also, the only MLDs that had structural modifications were the Soviet ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Were those MLD's exported at any point, or were all the so called "MLD" in foreign service just modified MLA? New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLTeo Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 According to Airvectors (http://airvectors.net/avmig23_1.html#m6) only the Soviet aircraft had the aerodynamic improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat155 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Were those MLD's exported at any point, or were all the so called "MLD" in foreign service just modified MLA? Only case when original MLD were exported during USSR existence was bulgarian case ( 5 aircraft swapped for 4 MiG-25 ). After Soviet Union collapse several used aircrafts withdrawn from service in former SU republics inventory were sold to Syria and Angola. According some sources few ex-Soviet MLD's were donated to Libya lately, but no photo evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Ok, so there are/were some actual MLD's that made it out of the USSR. But since we are getting the MLA it was more of an academic question. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat155 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 During Soviet Union times only those 5 for Bulgaria. Weaponry for MiG-23ML/MLA according manual: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLTeo Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 It looks like there are no rocket pods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trident GER Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 You can load S5 and S8 rockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLTeo Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Ah my bad I noticed them now. For some reason I thought that was the gun/gunpod ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The charts and the AoA gauge detail highlighted earlier are really interesting. I think the 23 has been underrated due to 3rd world operators. Those figures presented are quite respectable, especially for its era Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 While I enjoy flying the MiG-21bis despite all its limitations and look forward to the MiG-23MLA, I do not have high expectations about its performance other than its speed. From the Osprey booklet Duel 72, on the results of the USAF 'Constant Peg' program in which ten MiG-23s were assessed and pitted against US aircraft: The type was almost universally reviled by the “Red Eagles” pilots because of its unreliable handling characteristics. On the eve of Operation Desert Storm, one former “Red Eagles” pilot summed up the “Flogger” by saying, “When the MiG-23 had first come out, [uSAF Intelligence] had told us that this jet was going to be a huge threat to American and Coalition airplanes. They told us it had tremendous capabilities and we should be scared to death of it. From a tactical fighter pilot’s point of view, the thing was a piece of junk.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudikoff Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) While I enjoy flying the MiG-21bis despite all its limitations and look forward to the MiG-23MLA, I do not have high expectations about its performance other than its speed. From the Osprey booklet Duel 72, on the results of the USAF 'Constant Peg' program in which ten MiG-23s were assessed and pitted against US aircraft: Those were the MiG-23MS models, IIRC. The MLA should be lighter and more maneuverable, not to mention having a much better radar and weapons since the export MS models were severely dumbed down (they had MiG-21 radar and missiles, no RWR, etc.). So, while the quote "From a tactical fighter pilot’s point of view, the thing was a piece of junk." sounds just about right for the lowly MS model, the better variants are vastly more capable in comparison. Edited August 21, 2019 by Dudikoff i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The charts and the AoA gauge detail highlighted earlier are really interesting. I think the 23 has been underrated due to 3rd world operators. Those figures presented are quite respectable, especially for its era Because it is MLA/MLD yes, we find good performance there. About the poor success in certain Middle East conflicts. Sometimes they were in tactical and technological disadvantage. Israel with AWACS and F-15 vs the crappy mixed version of Mig-23 from Syria (I guess many people here know the disadvantage between AWACS and GCI). I don’t know if Soviets help Syria with AWACS for those Cold War conflicts. I guess Nop. Iraq-Iran F-14 most of the time was far away from hot areas giving a important kind of tactical AWACS use. Iraq didn’t have this important service. together with all the crappy versions with poor avionic that never help. Soviets export policy help for those poor results. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Кош Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Tech is just a part of the equation. You have to actually fight with it, with skill and motivation. Syria had pretty nice setup in terms of hardware - including automated IADS. What they did is violating almost every AD tactics textbook and neglecting advisors. You can compare Syrians with the Cubans in Angola if you want. ППС АВТ 100 60 36 Ф < | > ! ПД К i5-10600k/32GB 3600/SSD NVME/4070ti/2560x1440'32/VPC T-50 VPC T-50CM3 throttle Saitek combat rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) Tech is just a part of the equation. You have to actually fight with it, with skill and motivation. Syria had pretty nice setup in terms of hardware - including automated IADS. What they did is violating almost every AD tactics textbook and neglecting advisors. You can compare Syrians with the Cubans in Angola if you want. That’s also true. I agree with you. I just didn’t want go beyond the Tech issue because then I need to jump in personal issues. About Cubans in Angola. SAAF wanted to do the same ambushes to the Cubans. Worked well the first two. After those Cubans never bite again. Also after that Cubans did respond to SAAF with their own ambushes just did it different. Edited August 21, 2019 by pepin1234 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) Those were the MiG-23MS models, IIRC. The MLA should be lighter and more maneuverable, not to mention having a much better radar and weapons since the export MS models were severely dumbed down (they had MiG-21 radar and missiles, no RWR, etc.). So, while the quote "From a tactical fighter pilot’s point of view, the thing was a piece of junk." sounds just about right for the lowly MS model, the better variants are vastly more capable in comparison. And two BN models. Certainly, compared to the MS and BN, the MLA version was lightened and had a more powerful engine, but I have my doubts these would make it competitive on normal MP servers. I would not expect too much of the Sapfir III radar either, just a +/- 30 degree scan zone in the horizontal plane and +/- 6 in the vertical with a very thin beam (2.5-3.5 degrees), optimized for frontal arc engagements with much shorter detection ranges for lower flying targets and little ability to detect or track targets in the chase. The aircraft was still wedded to the GCI to find its targets. The MiG-23MLA will most likely find its proper place on the various Cold War themed MP servers. Hopefully, BD will make a nice campaign for it. Edited August 21, 2019 by Cyrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Tech is just a part of the equation. You have to actually fight with it, with skill and motivation. Syria had pretty nice setup in terms of hardware - including automated IADS. What they did is violating almost every AD tactics textbook and neglecting advisors. You can compare Syrians with the Cubans in Angola if you want. I recall reading about the Syrians trying to "hide" an SA6 site (fixed) with smoke to hide it from air attack... It just made it easier to see... New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Кош Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I recall reading about the Syrians trying to "hide" an SA6 site (fixed) with smoke to hide it from air attack... It just made it easier to see... And placing an EW radar in the valley because putting it on a hill is extra work... And not shooting down anti-radiation and other guided missiles for what there are manuals starting from early 70's, for the S-75 crews. ППС АВТ 100 60 36 Ф < | > ! ПД К i5-10600k/32GB 3600/SSD NVME/4070ti/2560x1440'32/VPC T-50 VPC T-50CM3 throttle Saitek combat rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverStratos Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) I would not expect too much of the Sapfir III radar either, just a +/- 30 degree scan zone in the horizontal plane and +/- 6 in the vertical with a very thin beam (2.5-3.5 degrees), optimized for frontal arc engagements with much shorter detection ranges for lower flying targets and little ability to detect or track targets in the chase. The aircraft was still wedded to the GCI to find its targets. You are just talking here about the beam properties of the radar without taking into account that the antenna actually moves so it sweeps the space in front of it. The N003 search sweep cover +30°/-35° in elevation and 60° in azimuth. This can change in dependence of the radar mode. As this radar belongs to the firsts to use Doppler signals for look-down, anything under 1km altitude is detected below the distance of 30km. Edited August 21, 2019 by OverStratos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 And two BN models. Certainly, compared to the MS and BN, the MLA version was lightened and had a more powerful engine, but I have my doubts these would make it competitive on normal MP servers. I would not expect too much of the Sapfir III radar either, just a +/- 30 degree scan zone in the horizontal plane and +/- 6 in the vertical with a very thin beam (2.5-3.5 degrees), optimized for frontal arc engagements with much shorter detection ranges for lower flying targets and little ability to detect or track targets in the chase. The aircraft was still wedded to the GCI to find its targets. The MiG-23MLA will most likely find its proper place on the various Cold War themed MP servers. Hopefully, BD will make a nice campaign for it. Its not going to be "competitive" in the classic DCS aeroquake until some actual 70's era blufor birds are built for it to shoot down. That being said I think it should do ok against an F5E or F86... Raz will produce the latest greatest mirage to stay up-to-date in aeroquake world. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverStratos Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Its not going to be "competitive" in the classic DCS aeroquake until some actual 70's era blufor birds are built for it to shoot down. That being said I think it should do ok against an F5E or F86... Raz will produce the latest greatest mirage to stay up-to-date in aeroquake world. It will be competitive with everything you have in DCS now unless they are armed with active AAMs of corse, and even then it should not be imposible either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probad Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) competitiveness is an attitude ill never forget watching wumas take on 3 flankers in a f-5, they threw everything at him including r-73s but he jammed every shot through superior positioning Edited August 21, 2019 by probad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It will be competitive with everything you have in DCS now unless they are armed with active AAMs of corse, and even then it should not be imposible either. I guess what I was getting at is that the aeroquake set generally want the bestest most modernest uber fighter. This won't be it. I'll fly it online and enjoy it though. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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