R27ET, explained?

Im not much of a Flanker pilot, I enjoy it's flight model, I think it's probably the best jet FM after the L39, however I didn't take it into the fight online that much. I fly mostly with the M2000C online, but now I got the itch to go with the big jets again and take a break from the Mirage.

So to catch up with the Flanker's tactics, radar, weapons employment etc. I looked around on the internet and found quite a lot of guides, tutorials etc. but interestingly enough I found relatively little (read: almost nothing) on this IR missile, there is literally nothing about EOS and the ET on youtube, apart from just random online PvP videos and what little info there is on the forums here is very vague so:

1) I know that the missile can be slaved to the radar, but how does it work exactly? Once I have target lock, and am in range, can I just fire the missile and will it track if I break radar lock if it's seeker picks up the bandit heat signature?

2) Whats this PPS mode, I keep reading about? is it implemented in DCS at all?

3) I've seen some videos where players will use the HMD mode to fire the ET, how does that work? Does it slave the missile seeker to a contact just like with the R73?

4) How does EOS work exactly? If I have a lock and am in range, can I fire the missile and immediately break lock? Will the missile track at that point?

Bring your knowledge RED drivers, and thank you :D

 

1) I know that the missile can be slaved to the radar, but how does it work exactly? Once I have target lock, and am in range, can I just fire the missile and will it track if I break radar lock if it's seeker picks up the bandit heat signature?

The T/ET variant has no datalink and is LOBL (Lock On Before Launch) unlike radar variant (LOAL Lock On After Launch).

Once you get a lock, and authorized then you can launch it. But be careful as currently it just love eat flares (and R variants love to eat chaff).

You can use just the EOS to search and lock on targets. Best tutorial is in DCS itself about it.

It is mainly used against running target, meaning because it has longest range of IR missiles and reach 4.5 mach, you use it as tactical advantage when someone run by firing it to afterburning enemy. So it is like a "finishing move" but mainly for enemy that is unaware of you being at rear.

The radar doesn't have a benefit as missile doesn't have datalink (mid-curse guidance) and doesn't guide missile at all.

The radar can be used to point EOS/missile seeker toward target but IR missile needs to get the lock by own seeker. So radar is useful to get lock in bad weather before IR seeker can find it.

You have three modes.

RADAR only

EOS+RADAR

EOS only

You switch those by binding two buttons to EOS and radar and turn them On/Off as you please. Same lock button as the system takes care what is used for missile.

2) Whats this PPS mode, I keep reading about? is it implemented in DCS at all?

Never heard

3) I've seen some videos where players will use the HMD mode to fire the ET, how does that work? Does it slave the missile seeker to a contact just like with the R73?

Same way. You enable HMS targeting mode (like air-to-air or air-to-ground) and aim reticle in screen at target and lock.

4) How does EOS work exactly? If I have a lock and am in range, can I fire the missile and immediately break lock? Will the missile track at that point?

EOS sensor search heat and allows you to lock on it. The missile seeker points direction where your EOS points and as well all radar etc if you have both turned on same time. Meaning you can use EOS in dogfight to lock on target but switch to radar guided missile to use radar that was pointed at the target.

The IR missiles are LOBL and passive (standalone guided) so after lock and launch you can lose a lock.

The HMS has limited range and when range is exceeded the circle gets a cross. And the launch authorization is continuously computed depending your attitude to enemy, your speed, range and enemy speed and attitude.

So firing from high angle means missile leaving rail needs to consume more energy to turn at start where every second wasted for turning is radically shortening final maneuvers at target.

So avoid high angle shots at long range if target is not in NEZ (No Escape Zone, it is second bar at target range bar on bottom left at HUD) or if target could maneuver radically after launch.

The EOS problem is that it uses laser for rangefinding, so you are limited to 10km ranging and otherwise you need to estimate range or use a radar.

But you can fly and use even cannon just with EOS without other getting RWR alarm. But some had laser receivers and get lazing alarm.

Remeber that EOS is the dome straight front of your HUD outside cockpit and it cant see below nose. So if you have a lock to target and target gets below nose, EOS lose lock and so does unlaunched missile seeker too, even when seeker has wider gimbal range like R-73.

:

 

1) I know that the missile can be slaved to the radar, but how does it work exactly? Once I have target lock, and am in range, can I just fire the missile and will it track if I break radar lock if it's seeker picks up the bandit heat signature?

 

2) Whats this PPS mode, I keep reading about? is it implemented in DCS at all?

 

3) I've seen some videos where players will use the HMD mode to fire the ET, how does that work? Does it slave the missile seeker to a contact just like with the R73?

 

4) How does EOS work exactly? If I have a lock and am in range, can I fire the missile and immediately break lock? Will the missile track at that point?

 

Bring your knowledge RED drivers, and thank you :D

1) Yes you can. It depends on distance and ir-signature. But you have to track target.

2) PPS means radar mode allowing to advanced detect of targets that are flying towards you. But escaping targets will be detected badly.

PPS from russian could be translated as "front semisphere" (of the target).

3) Don't know what is HMD (sorry for my english)

4) No. You have to track target till it was hit.

1) Yes you can. It depends on distance and ir-signature. But you have to track target.

2) PPS means radar mode allowing to advanced detect of targets that are flying towards you. But escaping targets will be detected badly.

PPS from russian could be translated as "front semisphere" (of the target).

3) Don't know what is HMD (sorry for my english)

4) No. You have to track target till it was hit.

Why you believe that IR missile kike R-2T/ET requires tracking when missile doesn't have a datalink nor radar to receive guidance from launching platform?

 

4) How does EOS work exactly? If I have a lock and am in range, can I fire the missile and immediately break lock? Will the missile track at that point?

 

I didnt pay much attention to it cos after i release the missile i usually keep the lock and chasing the target to make sure he is dead but as far as i know and from what i experienced so far, 27T or 27ET doesnt need any guidance after you release them. Still that being said im gonna try this one when i get home.

 

2) Whats this PPS mode, I keep reading about? is it implemented in DCS at all?

There are three 'modes' of operation:

• PPS (ППС) - Front Half Sphere, good for detecting enemies coming towards you
  
• ZPS (ЗПС) - Rear Half Sphere, good for detecting enemies running away from you
  
• AVT (ABT) - Automatic, kind of a compromise between the two.
  

In short, use PPS to detect targets further away that are flying towards you.

There are three 'modes' of operation:

 

• PPS (ППС) - Front Half Sphere, good for detecting enemies coming towards you
  
• ZPS (ЗПС) - Rear Half Sphere, good for detecting enemies running away from you
  
• AVT (ABT) - Automatic, kind of a compromise between the two.
  

In short, use PPS to detect targets further away that are flying towards you.

Ahh... Those are same as the English version for (High/Med PRF and ILV for a mix.

1) I know that the missile can be slaved to the radar, but how does it work exactly? Once I have target lock, and am in range, can I just fire the missile and will it track if I break radar lock if it's seeker picks up the bandit heat signature?

With launch authorisation, yes, otherwise you will have to override and the missile will have to find the target in flight usually a lower Pk shot.

2) Whats this PPS mode, I keep reading about? is it implemented in DCS at all?

Radar set in 'Hi PRF mode'

3) I've seen some videos where players will use the HMD mode to fire the ET, how does that work? Does it slave the missile seeker to a contact just like with the R73?

yes, just like the R73

4) How does EOS work exactly? If I have a lock and am in range, can I fire the missile and immediately break lock? Will the missile track at that point?

Yes, IR missiles are fire and forget, EOS picks up heat sources, you lock onto a heat source and the EOS slaves your seeker to that direction where your missile then either aquires LA or doesn't ie. the seeker doesn't see the heat source. If the later is true you can still override and fire but your missile with have to find the target in flight, low Pk.

Thanks for the replies. I've already had some success with the ET against unwary targets. Ugh, now just to get used to the terrible RWR on the Sukhoi :)

A few more questions. How come the Sukhoi is limited to only two ETs? Is that because the inner pylons are positioned so as to limit the Seekers FOV? Also, when launching an ER and an ET at the same target, which should be launched first?

Thanks for the replies. I've already had some success with the ET against unwary targets. Ugh, now just to get used to the terrible RWR on the Sukhoi :)

 

...when launching an ER and an ET at the same target, which should be launched first?

You'll get used to the Beriosa eventually.

You will almost always get LA for the -ER well before authorization for the -ET. That being the case, the -ER should probably come off the rail first.

Thanks for the replies. I've already had some success with the ET against unwary targets. Ugh, now just to get used to the terrible RWR on the Sukhoi :)

 

A few more questions. How come the Sukhoi is limited to only two ETs? Is that because the inner pylons are positioned so as to limit the Seekers FOV? Also, when launching an ER and an ET at the same target, which should be launched first?

RWR aint terrible, it just requires you to fly and filter threads that way that are secondary.

In heat of danger it is extremely powerful as you can see direction, range and type, fly correspondingly to notch etc.

Once you understand the geometry and values of SPO-15, it becomes more effective than western ones. The system is just nerfed in DCS as you don't have a GCI.

Thanks for the replies. I've already had some success with the ET against unwary targets. Ugh, now just to get used to the terrible RWR on the Sukhoi :)

 

A few more questions. How come the Sukhoi is limited to only two ETs? Is that because the inner pylons are positioned so as to limit the Seekers FOV? Also, when launching an ER and an ET at the same target, which should be launched first?

No coolant supply to the beely, these missiles drop before igniying, probably not ideal for ir missiles.

What first is all dependent on the situation, generally if you're firing ER's then you're doing so because the target knows you're there, so ER first and ET to defend yourself.

As soon as you launch ER the target will defend with cm, sometimes it is best to launch ET first to deny those preemptive flares. An ET fired after can possibly lock onto your ER, is this good or bad? There is no right way all that matters is you deny the target a chance to shoot at you.

RWR aint terrible, it just requires you to fly and filter threads that way that are secondary.

In heat of danger it is extremely powerful as you can see direction, range and type, fly correspondingly to notch etc.

 

 

Once you understand the geometry and values of SPO-15, it becomes more effective than western ones. The system is just nerfed in DCS as you don't have a GCI.

It is probably a case of being much more reliable than the real one with emission strength always the same value for each radar set in DCS. I'm just speculating but it may even be that the ranges it picks up from could be exaggerated.

In reality the SPO-15 of DCS is simplified, the real leds are different IRL, read below from a post I wrote a while ago:

I was reading the real SU-27SK manual and found a serie of differences, but the most important was about the SPO-15 threat type warning lights, in the DCS SU-27 and FC3 DCS manuals it appear like below:

Threats types:

П – airborne radar

З - long-range radar

X - medium-range radar

H - short-range radar

F - early warning radar

C - AWACS

but in the SU-27SK manual, is more complex, and it's not that simple to delimit the air and ground targets:

SPO-15LM

П – irradiation from SAMs "Terrier" or aircraft type F-4, F-104 with simultaneous inclusion of spike for aiming "Sparrow" missile

З – irradiation type SAM "Chaparral", "Vulcan" or naval SAM "Sea Wolf"

X – irradiation of SAMs like "Hawk" or aircraft type F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 (long-range)

Н – irradiation SAM type "Nike Hercules," "Patriot," or naval "Talos";

Г – exposure to short distance of the aircraft F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 or missile "Phoenix" in ARH (possibly flashing signals Г together with the X)

С – irradiation aircraft type F-4, F-5, F-104, F-111 (without including the illumination channel П), Mirage, Jaguar, nails of SAM type "Terrier", "Crotale"

Original:

П – облучение ЗРК «Терьер» или самолетами типа F-4, F-104 с одновременным включением подсвета для наведения ракет типа «Спарроу»;

З – облучение ЗРК типа «Чапарел», «Вулкан» или ЗРК «Сивульф»;

X – облучение ЗРК типа «Хок» или самолетами F-14, F-15, F-16 и F-18 (с больших дальностей);

Н – облучение ЗРК типа «Найк-Геркулес», «Патриот», «Талос»;

Г – облучение с малых дальностей самолета F-14, F-15, F-16 и F-18 или ракетой «Феникс» с РТС (возможно высвечивание сигнала Г совместно с сигналом X);

С – облучение самолетами типа F-4, F-5, F-104, F-111 (без включения канала подсвета), МИРАЖ, ЯГУАР, ЛАЙТНИНГ или ЗРК типа "Терьер", "Кроталь",

In this case the FC3 SPO RWR were designed to give a more easy way to deal with it?

 

A few more questions. How come the Sukhoi is limited to only two ETs?

1). Because the IR versions(R-27T and -ET) can only use the rail launcher(APU-470).

2). The rail launcher can only be used on the two inner wing stations....R-27 missiles are too big further out.

3). The rail launcher cannot be used on fuselage stations due to danger of ingesting missile plume into the engine inlets at launch. These stations require the ejector launcher(AKU-470), which can only be used by the radar guided variants(R-27R and -ER).

Is that because the inner pylons are positioned so as to limit the Seekers FOV?

....well that too.

Some tactical considerations relating to the R-27ET:

1) You'll only get launch authorisation when the seeker head has locked on to a target. As other people mentioned, this means that you'll get launch authority for a 27-ER shot significantly before you get launch authority for the 27-ET.

2) You can override the launch authority and launch on bearing, in which case the missile will attempt to lock on to the first thing it detects. If you're very lucky it will find a target and lock it up, but obviously this can have serious consequences because the missile won't distinguish between enemy and friendly targets.

3) Just like the R-27ER, the -ET has excellent acceleration and an impressive top speed. This makes it an ideal missile for tail-chase shots against fleeing targets or against targets that you've forced to behave defensively.

However...

4) The R-27ET shares seeker characteristics with the R-73 so if your target pumps out enough flares it will be decoyed.

5) The -ET produces a very obvious smoke trail and as such is much less effective than an R-73 against targets that have you locked up with a Mk.1 eyeball or against observant pilots in general.

6) The R-27ET has nothing like the maneuverability of an R-73 so firing one during a merge is usually pointless, unless you fire it in a tail chase scenario against an extending target.

7) You can use your helmet mounted sight or any radar or EOS mode to lock a target and launch an R-27ET, but bear in mind that it does not have a good off-bore capability so don't be tempted to launch one significantly off-axis with your HMS the same way you can with the R-73.

All in all the R-27ET is a super useful missile, but only in certain situations.

It is probably a case of being much more reliable than the real one with emission strength always the same value for each radar set in DCS. I'm just speculating but it may even be that the ranges it picks up from could be exaggerated.

Actually the emission strength ain't same for all. So meaning distances ain't same either.

But anyways, i think that in reality it would be programmed to be same for all... As i dont see reason for it to be differentially linear for different types, when you don't always hear what type is there.

So if you have no preprief what you are facing, then no idea what is coming as that aint realistic SPO-15 as already told. Missing unique sounds and better filtering and classification that real has.

But that is a another topic for original poster...

1). Because the IR versions(R-27T and -ET) can only use the rail launcher(APU-470).

 

2). The rail launcher can only be used on the two inner wing stations....R-27 missiles are too big further out.

 

3). The rail launcher cannot be used on fuselage stations due to danger of ingesting missile plume into the engine inlets at launch. These stations require the ejector launcher(AKU-470), which can only be used by the radar guided variants(R-27R and -ER).

 

 

 

....well that too.

R-27 family uses same pylon adapter.

A

But anyways, i think that in reality it would be programmed to be same for all... As i dont see reason for it to be differentially linear for different types, when you don't always hear what type is there.

hmmm...What do you mean "programmed to be same for all"? It's just a linear function based on emitter strength and distance...and that's what the SPO displays - the emitter signal strength.

R-27 family uses same pylon adapter.

There are two different launcher types for the "R-27 family".

- the APU-470 rail launcher used by the MiG-29 and for wing stations on the Su-27.

- the AKU-470 ejector rack used on fuselage stations on the Su-27.

The R-27T & R-27ET can only be used on the APU-470.

The R-27R & R-27ER can use both the APU-470 and AKU-470.

hmmm...What do you mean "programmed to be same for all"? It's just a linear function based on emitter strength and distance...and that's what the SPO displays - the emitter signal strength.

It is linear per emmitter type, but non-linear by all.

Ie. Every radar capabilities are spied, they are measured and tested so RWR can be configured to have the scale right. One of the state secret to know RWR and RADAR capabilities.

So why a radar that has a different emission power has different scale?

In DCS that aint the case, meaning if you have a F-15 at 40km, it will have differently power than a F-16 at 40km.

Both with same missiles, same threat etc.

So why F-15 is closer, and F-16 is further visually?

Like why not have the RWR programmed so that the visual is giving the estimate for range regardless the emission power?

It cant just be so that the estimated is based to RWR limitations for empty-well/full-well (and it isnt).

But that just doesnt make sense to me.

But one reason is that i have no idea what the -7 and 7 scale means, why the 0 is on the center nose of aircraft symbol. Ie. What -2 means compared to 0? Or what does the 0 mean? As the emission power scale being logarithmic among all radars, linear by individuals doesnt just make sense to me. And on soviet systems there is always logic behind things because simplicity philosophy.

A max launch range? Or a max possible detection range? As after all SPO-15 is 20% (120%?) more sensitive than the radar for echoes it receives, meaning RWR see radar 20% further before it can see RWR craft.

Actually the emission strength ain't same for all. So meaning distances ain't same either.

 

Yes I thought the wording would catch someone, I meant that each set has its own strength always set the same not all radars are the same. I worked the majority of radar ranges in DCS out 10 years ago?;)

It is linear per emmitter type, but non-linear by all.

 

Ie. Every radar capabilities are spied, they are measured and tested so RWR can be configured to have the scale right. One of the state secret to know RWR and RADAR capabilities.

 

So why a radar that has a different emission power has different scale?

 

In DCS that aint the case, meaning if you have a F-15 at 40km, it will have differently power than a F-16 at 40km.

Both with same missiles, same threat etc.

So why F-15 is closer, and F-16 is further visually?

 

Like why not have the RWR programmed so that the visual is giving the estimate for range regardless the emission power?

 

It cant just be so that the estimated is based to RWR limitations for empty-well/full-well (and it isnt).

 

But that just doesnt make sense to me.

 

But one reason is that i have no idea what the -7 and 7 scale means, why the 0 is on the center nose of aircraft symbol. Ie. What -2 means compared to 0? Or what does the 0 mean? As the emission power scale being logarithmic among all radars, linear by individuals doesnt just make sense to me. And on soviet systems there is always logic behind things because simplicity philosophy.

 

 

A max launch range? Or a max possible detection range? As after all SPO-15 is 20% (120%?) more sensitive than the radar for echoes it receives, meaning RWR see radar 20% further before it can see RWR craft.

I suppose this is the difference between a threat warning system and a basic RWR. Even though the real Beroyza uses cards to create a threat database tailored to the mission requirements I guess ED took the route of showing emission strength (and a basic global emmitter type coverage) instead of threat level. It may be that this is correct and certain emissions types are just grouped like DCS, the real SPO does class groups the patriot group being priority, major fighters, euro fighters, weaker fighters, med sam and shorad having their own groups maybe the scale is only limited to strength sort of halfway to a proper threat warning system. Even so I believe like you the logical choice would be threat level rather than emitter strength.

Even so I believe like you the logical choice would be threat level rather than emitter strength.

But none that would matter until we get a deep insights about SPO-15 capabilities for some future module (Su-27SM pretty please...) or such...

It is just sad that so far has been become from a Lock-On time, fixing many false information like how many R-27T can really be carried by sukhois and in what pylons. But still we have all these core limitations that makes everything so.... Bad once you get aware of the missing capabilities...

So hope that R-27 family would get better regarding obvious problems so they could get useful.

Thanks everyone for all the information and help. Really appreciated! :thumbup: