Question regarding "realism" of mission planning

Hey so I like making my own missions.

But I feel kinda cheap flying into an area when I know where the ground targets are.

To mitigate this nagging feeling, I've been thinking that "real pilots" are briefed on their missions before they take off, and targets are pointed out by intelligence folks who are surveying the battlefield through satellite and drones...

So it's not really "THAT CHEAP" knowing the location of units before hand, since real pilots already know roughly where units are before they fly in, right? Right?

Just looking for opinions on this subject.

You don't always know where your enemy is, especially exactly.

However the ME allows you to make missions that leave you "blind". With late activation you can randomly choose units to spawn, and if you go with scripting you can even place random units in random positions. I also dislike knowing how a mission will play before hand so I design my missions to avoid the problem.

You don't always know where your enemy is, especially exactly.

 

 

However the ME allows you to make missions that leave you "blind". With late activation you can randomly choose units to spawn, and if you go with scripting you can even place random units in random positions. I also dislike knowing how a mission will play before hand so I design my missions to avoid the problem.

For example, I have a certain mission that has five different enemy air defense setups of varying difficulty (ie. the 1st is a few Iglas and Shilkas, the 5th has several Tunguskas, SA-13s, SA-9s and AAA). That way, I have to assume that there are AD units present and fly accordingly, without being sure about their type, number or locations, which I think is reasonably realistic.

You can always download community missions then replace whatever aircraft they used with your choice. As othera mentioned also, randomisation of spawns helps a lot, too.

You generally know the exact location of your primary target with associated comprehensive intel like satellite photos etc. Whole intel sections are focused on just getting as much intel on your target as they can and organising it into a briefing package for the flight.

Insofar as every other enemy unit - not so much! Random placement and late triggers are the way to go - wish more missions and campaigns utilised random stuff. You usually have a good idea of the enemies capabilities thou. (IMHO as ex-military aircrew)

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day when you consider the fact that the 16 tanks sitting out in the farmers field just sit there watching there friends explode just waiting for their turn.

People like to call this a simulator, but the real issue has always been... sure the aircraft and flight models have great fidelity, but, when the ground simulation is this poor, it kinda defeats the point. The only real simulation I get out of this is A2A multiplayer, otherwise I feel like I'm sitting on a sofa, circling 10nm out, picking off vehicles like watching popcorn pop.

It's not the simulations fault a mission designer puts tanks in a field, gives them no target to advance against, and provides them no air defense knowing the enemy has air superiority....

If you want a shooting gallery don't complain that it's a shooting gallery.

I understand what you're saying, my point is merely that the ground units, whether in a field or not, do little to protect themselves. A/D wise, anything below a Tor is a non issue, anything above that, you wouldn't be flying in there realistically anyway. With no real EW simulation, you just grab an 18 and Harm->fire next fire next fire next fire RTB.

I kinda see the problem with the ground/SAM/AI units, but i'm not really sure where to go with it, either ME point or AI coding...

for example, take a well thought out/layered SAM site (that isn't in the middle of a flat desert).

If you approach it from on high, the S300 will lock you up and fire, so you dive behind a little hill, 50ft is enough if you can fly 20ft happily. The missile self usually self destructs, but certainly can't hit.

You pop up again, the s300 locks, and fires. this simple tactic of draining the sam sites involves no use of CM. The reason I mention it, the AI even with 20 missiles, never realises what you are doing and will do this over and over until its got nothing left. A slightly more intelligent AI (again, no idea how to code stuff like this) might fire a couple, realise what you are doing, and not fire anymore at max range, instead waiting for you to move a few miles away from this spot with the hill, and then fire. Still 80-90% of max range, but not 90-100%

but getting off from the OP - yes the easiest way to make missions a bit more dynamic (especially for people like me who dont really understand scripting) is to setup in the same mission the enemy a certain way, set group to late activaton.

Then repeat this process again, using slightly different positions/unit combinations etc (again its gonna be the same ball park re which base the AI is defending etc)

repeat this several times, and no limit to how many combinations.

Then the way I do it, set a trigger, mission time = 15 (this allows stuff to settle on load), and set flag1 random 1-10

then have another trigger and it says something like

once, flag 1 = 1, activate group OpforSAMgroup1

once, flag 1 = 2, activatg group OpforSAMgroup2

obviously you could have 3 layers of enemies and randomise 3 flags to give more and more combinations, or do somthing like

once, flag 1 = 9, activate group OpforSAMgroup1 (and) activate group OpforSAMgroup4

one of my favourite things is to dump 6-7 enemy planes/groups about 50nm at low level, in random positions, all around the outsides of a circle, the centre being enemy base, and all set to late acitvcation, then when a random group gets under 80%, set 2 flags to contonious (1-50) and then when both flags equal 10, activate a random group of planes.

This way, even if you're exactly sure you killed 80% of an enemy group, you will have no idea how long it will take the sim, at once per second, to randomly match up 10 twice, when picking 2 numbers 1-50

you also won't know which way they will come from, and as they start low, it should come up as a bit of a suprise.

obviously tweaking with the timings to account for how many options/groups you have (the more groups, the bigger the random number, to allow for a randomness in delay, )

edit:

you could also add this random delay effect to any other trigger you have going. For example you might have a big circle trigger over an enemy base that once your plane flies into the zone, 2 enemy late activation planes take off from other enemy bases and head towards your main target area - so instead of this happening instantly, even if you add the cold start optin to the planes - you can set that activation of this trigger to set a flag true, and have another continuous trigger check once that flag is true, again to generate a couple random flags over and over. something like flag20, 1-60 and flag 21, 1-20 (as triggers check once per second, this setup would generally trigger once in 20minutes)

make a few late activated SAM batteries of different types in their respective general layout, use a common name Prefix for all SAMs and set the skill of all units to random. declare an area on your map and use a late activated unit to draw a polygon zone with waypoints within that area. use MOOSE to spawn whatever amount and type of your template SAMs in that zone. Use the common name prefix of your SAMs and feed that to the SEAD class of the MOOSE framework. if you're unlucky and they spawn with excellent skill it's INCREDIBLE hard and frustrating to fight them. even the older SAMs (SA-2 etc.) are very dangerous now. throw in a dynamic spawned EWR with the same common name prefix and it gets even more dangerous with SAMs enabling their tracking radars late, SAM Traps etc.

an easy single-ship mission target could become a target that requires a big strike package with SEAD cover etc.

have fun spamming multiple HARMs and still get shot down or use hard work tactical supression to have a slight chance :D

This thread turned out so much better than I expected. Thank you for the ideas guys.

Some of you REALLY need to upload your missions for newbies to tinker with. Cool tricks.

I understand what you're saying, my point is merely that the ground units, whether in a field or not, do little to protect themselves.

What are they realistically going to do? They're tanks in a field. They can't move very fast for cover if you're overhead. They're likely part of a disciplined fighting force with orders to be at that location. They're not just going to scatter because a single enemy airplane is flying overhead.

It think your expectations of their ability to take cover might not be accurate.

A/D wise, anything below a Tor is a non issue, anything above that, you wouldn't be flying in there realistically anyway. With no real EW simulation, you just grab an 18 and Harm->fire next fire next fire next fire RTB.

It's hard to not know where the targets are when you are the mission builder...but in my missions, I have all the baby settings turned off...no F-Keys view of the Enemy on External, Ground Track, or the Map...and it helps with the realism. I set all of these settings up in my main menu first before building the mission so it applies them to the ME after the fact...and then in the ME, I bring up the Mission Options and further make it harder/realistic there if needed.

Some of you REALLY need to upload your missions for newbies to tinker with. Cool tricks.

You might try taking some of the ED Created Missions from the Instant Action/Quickstart files in game and tweak those for your liking without paying attention to the target locations...those are sometimes done well.

You the hard or fixed target location but not the resistance location unless intel has them under surveillance then you may know where they were last seen the thing to do to make your mission more realistic is to place the same unit several places and use a random spawn for each if you only think one unit of that type may be in the area use a conditional statement to see if one of the earlier units have spawn if so then make it so the rest can’t. Do that for each resistance unit in the area. That way there is some surprises for you.

You are discribing poor mission desingn ;) the tools are there albeit very complex and time consuming... Still several members of the community have uploaded several "sand box" missions with very realistic designs and results...

This issue caused me to learn how to script so I could enjoy my own content. It's not a happy path unless the idea appeals to you.

Squadrons are better propositions. You get intel that the mission designer wants to pass to the package leader/side commander. The package leader briefs the package. The flight leader plans his flight and then briefs his flight. At the end of the process, the veil of fog comes down and no one knows what is going to happen. Usually as a result of humans doing human things and DCS going tits up.

What are they realistically going to do? They're tanks in a field. They can't move very fast for cover if you're overhead. They're likely part of a disciplined fighting force with orders to be at that location. They're not just going to scatter because a single enemy airplane is flying overhead.

 

It think your expectations of their ability to take cover might not be accurate.

 

I can tell you any real life infantry or tank commander is going to consider the air threat and deploy his troops in cover as best as he can while meeting his mission objectives. He's not gonna park them mid farm field. If he has AA assets (which he should) he's gonna deploy those intelligently as well. If he's actually parked and not moving (i.e. on the defense) he's gonna absolutely use cover and camouflage as best as he can.

If your target is some type of vehicle or unit with multiple vehicles, then you can randomize where it pops up....kind of. So place the unit somewhere, cut and paste it in-say- 2 other locations. Give each a different name (armor1, armor2 and armor3). Set all for late activation. In the trigger screen in the editor set a “mission start” trigger (skip the middle “condition”) that sets flag#1 to a random number 1-3. Next trigger is that if flag1=1, then activate armor1. If flag1=2 then activate armor2, etc

That way, at mission start, your target will appear in one of three locations...but you won’t know which one. Doesn’t work for buildings but you would know where those are anyway

One feature I loved in ARMA since OPF, was that each waypoint was possible be set in size, and then the unit locked to that waypoint was set automatically set random position inside that area.

There was as well three random numbers for time, a time out and timer, where you selected Minimum time, average time and maximum time. And then the trigger/waypoint system automatically randomly selected time between min and max, and guided toward average if so set.

Example Min 5, Average 30 and max 120. Means that waypoint got triggered between 5-120 seconds, but as average was set to 30, it is more often around 30 seconds than either end of scale.

And each waypoint, trigger and unit, had a value "probability of existence" and so on you got easily set value between 0-100 as percentage that is a waypoint, object etc existence when it comes to it time.

Now, you could link objects to each others to synchronize them. Meaning that if other doesn't exist, then other doesn't happen. Or if one is not active, other Wil, wait until it is. This way you could easily example make u its move in organization where every unit in their synced waypoints waited others to arrive to their synced waypoints that were linked before continuing.

This all made very quick and super easy way to generate completely random missions, where you couldn't know what would happen. And in time when you forget the mission itself, you get completely surprised by the mission that you have generated.

And it is super easy get units respawn after elimination. So you could get waves after waves with same parameters etc.

But what we really need is a new system where we don't have groups and waypoints.

We need system where we have units (like in military, soldier, pair, team, section, squad, platoon, company etc) that we can command in any of the order level and exchange units among themselves (detach a infantry platoon from a company and get them transported via helicopters to new location and attach them to another company platoon as reserve etc) and most importantly we can create waypoints that are not tied to any unit, but they exist on map as waypoints. So one can make a one waypoint route for air border patrol and name it. And then take any unit (like a flight) and assign it to that waypoint route at any given way or manner. And this way get randomly generated waypoints, randomly generated units, and get them all work together by triggers, timers and functions.

Like make a route length of 50 km so that you split it to 15 different waypoint routes, few different routes that you name, like safe crossing over specific peninsula and then a long route etc. And then when you want unit to move through that 50 km position, you can only order to use each section in order with rules. Like if unit gets attacked, select a more safer route etc.

It allows to generate random troops movement, random units and get them have some optional freedom to operate effectively.

I can tell you any real life infantry or tank commander is going to consider the air threat and deploy his troops in cover as best as he can while meeting his mission objectives. He's not gonna park them mid farm field. If he has AA assets (which he should) he's gonna deploy those intelligently as well. If he's actually parked and not moving (i.e. on the defense) he's gonna absolutely use cover and camouflage as best as he can.

That is one major problems in DCS, that ground units has zero intelligence for self surviving.

A unit just blowed up! Lets scatter here randomly and button down, wait 600 seconds (default) before we continue our route.

No self respecting commander would even allow marching in tight formation on road, ready to be blown by single bomb or single ambush position. Vehicles would keep hundreds of meters separation exactly because self defense capability. No attack pilot would be stupid to engage such formation as it means that they have change only to get one of many, and after first strike all others are pulling to cover, prepared for self defense and now you have very very wide air defense network where pilot can get shot from multiple directions from random places. And after each overfly, units move and get a new location, requiring pilots to search them again.

No one could be flying and dropping full load of bombs with ie, 50 feet drop separation and destroy whole marching unit at one attack run. Instead you would need a 1500-3000 feet separation or a like, and good luck to get all lined up for you.....

It is completely different in urban conditions between high buildings and tight streets, but that is again against close combat ambushes.

Hey so I like making my own missions.

 

But I feel kinda cheap flying into an area when I know where the ground targets are.

 

To mitigate this nagging feeling, I've been thinking that "real pilots" are briefed on their missions before they take off, and targets are pointed out by intelligence folks who are surveying the battlefield through satellite and drones...

 

So it's not really "THAT CHEAP" knowing the location of units before hand, since real pilots already know roughly where units are before they fly in, right? Right?

 

Just looking for opinions on this subject.

Real pilots aren't just briefed, they are involved in planning their missions. They have a really good idea of where the threats are and where more threats could be placed before they climb into their cockpits. It's not an unrealistic stretch for SP folks to build their own missions.

As others have mentioned, you can season your missions with some uncertainty using the tools available in the ME.

It is also not unrealistic to have to go back and hit a target again on D+1, even though you thought you killed it on D-Day.

It's also okay for you to loiter over the target area for a few minutes if you're mindful of the threats in the area. Recommended practice for CAS and Armed Reconnaissance missions is for the flight to spend as much time as possible in the target area scanning with all available sensors before dropping any ordnance. The game's JTAC simulation skips the initial briefing and game plan that are part of the JTAC/FAC's process.