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Old 07-18-2008, 09:13 AM   #1
PhoenixBvo
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Default TrackIR switch flipping

This was posted originally in the producer's notes discussion, but I got some positive reactions and further suggestions, so it might deserve a seperate thread. Please share your views on this, it would be great to have it in the sim.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixBvo View Post
Wags, are you using a TrackIR 4 pro? My experience with the 3 pro is that I have trouble keeping my head perfectly still especially when looking down. Maybe the TrackIR 4 is better for that, but anyway I posted an idea to make flipping switches easier:

About the clickable cockpit, after watching the start-up developers note video, I got the idea that the mouse cursor position is determined in the screen coordinate axes, i.e. it moves with your head relative to the cockpit.

My request is to have an option available to make the mouse cursor direction move relative to the cockpit axes. The effect should be that the mouse stays fixed on a cockpit location while you move your head. For example, press the right mouse button to temporarily switch the coordinate system. This will make it much easier to flip a switch as you can control your cursor with only the mouse instead of both the mouse and the trackIR. Otherwise moving your head will make it much harder to keep the mouse on a certain location in the cockpit. Of course, when the next switch, lever or knob is outside your view, you would release the right mouse button, look at the desired object (while the cursor moves with your view) and then press the right mouse button again to steer your cursor to the exact location.

I hope this explanation is clear. I think it would greatly improve the interface as you depend quite heavily on the mouse cursor with so many switches, levers and knobs to be controlled.

Do you think it's still possible at this stage of development to put that option in the code? It shouldn't take much more than a reference frame rotation...

Can't wait to take this Sim for a spin
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Originally Posted by Pizzicato View Post
I have the same problem and that seems like an incredibly smart solution. Nice thinking, Phoenix.
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Originally Posted by eurofor View Post
I agree about TrackIR. If that's possible, it would be great!
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Originally Posted by ThunderChief View Post
I know this problem from MSFS and I have TrackIR 4. I think that solution could solve the problem, otherwise you always would have to zoom in very close.
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Originally Posted by Feuerfalke View Post
Are you sure it is your TrackIR in general? I had the very same problem in different games. Whenever I looked at my instruments the sight started shaking or rather drifting in different directions.

I tested it with the View->Tracking option in TrackIR and noticed that during play my seat position lowers, as I sit more comfortable. I have my TrackIR rotated 180 degrees, so when I do that, my Tracker only recognizes me in the upper 1/3 of it's field of view. The clip is still perfectly visible, but the head starts drifting more and more. I changed the position slightly, so it is rather looking down at me, but it fixed the drifting-problem.

Don't know if that will help you, but the symptoms surely sounded 100% the same.
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Originally Posted by NotiA10 View Post
try to reduce light filtering down to 150
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Originally Posted by ThunderChief View Post
The problem is that a switch can become very small (like 1/4 size of cursor) and then even very few shaking will become a problem particulary when you have to press that switch for some seconds.
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Originally Posted by Legolasindar View Post
+1

Great idea.
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Originally Posted by ThunderChief View Post
As a work around you could use the hotkey to toggle the tracking sensitivity, but I would prefer an ingame solution.
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Originally Posted by burnzoire View Post
I agree, it would be nice if the mouse cursor was fixed relative to the 3d space rather than head position. The momentary right mouse button is a bit of a problem with HOTAS though. You don't want to have to take up a button just to control your thumb mouse.

My suggestion would be to make the cursor invisible after x seconds idle. When the mouse is moved (be it mouse or hotas thumb mouse) then the cursor appears in the centre of the screen, fixed to the 3d space of the cockpit. So when you're moving the mouse, your head can move independently whilst the cursor moves inside a sphere centred on your view.

This should be a new thread btw, great idea PheonixBvo
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Originally Posted by Weta43 View Post
What might be nice is having it referenced to the cockpit, but influenced to some small extent by changes in the helicopter's yaw, roll & pitch - so that with your head down you have some idea of how the aircraft is moving.
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Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Note the minute head movement in LOMAC. It isn't missing in BS.
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:18 AM   #2
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Good idea! Thanks for summing up the important points of the discussion.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:46 PM   #3
Havner
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In TrackIR 4 pro (don't know how the TIR3 panel looks like, sorry if that's the same) you got something like "smoothing". Generally speaking it waits a little bit longer for input and then does one smoother move. This can reduce shaking but it causes a delay between head movement in RL and in game. I have to use it sometime exactly because the issue you described. And still it doesn't always help.
From my experience switching the engine of C4 in X-Plane in 6DOF cockpit where you have to keep the switch pushed for few secs and the switch is size of a cursor can be a pain.
The idea with cockpit relative cursor is great though it needs to be done well. Switching between those 2 is a must as well as good solution to what happens with the cursor when in cockpit relative mode and I move my head 180degrees to the other side of the cockpit. Whether it stays where it was (outside of the screen, probably not the good idea), moves with the edge or something completely different.
The idea above by burnzoire about hiding cursor after few secs and then putting it in the middle of the screen might be annoying for ministick/mouse like on my X52. Imagine you pushed few buttons on the bottom left of your current point of view but forgot about one and the cursor already cenetered. You don't want point the head on those (couse you're flying low & fast) but need to push that button. You have to move all the way from the center screen to bottom left again. With real mouse it's not a problem. With mini stick that got constant cursor speed it might.

Overall I'd really like to see that.

Last edited by Havner; 07-18-2008 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:47 PM   #4
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I might be stupid but for some reason that's how I imagined that it worked. So.. good idea!
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:33 PM   #5
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I once used that ministick mouse too, but I doubt you could use it instead of real mouse in BS because there are so many switches and a huge cockpit area.

I think you could do it this way:

- Mouse cursor is relative to cockpit
- You have on button (or double click) to recenter the mouse (to middle of the screen)

I think that would solve all problems.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:49 PM   #6
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There are some problems with the cockpit relative pointer, which needs to be resolved. Like what do you do when the view position changes (e.g. when moving in TrackIR)? E.g. the switch you were hovering may now be blocked by some other piece of cockpit. Do you still let the cursor stay at the now blocked instrument, or do you move it someplace else (onto what is now blocking the cursor?)?
If you move it to the front then it's no longer completely cockpit relative, and moving the head may move the cursor as well, which somewhat defeats the purpose of it (though not completely, having it stabilized in rotation is still useful, even if it won't be in stabilized movement). But you can't put the cursor somewhere and count on it staying there unless you also let the cursor be blocked behind something else.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:57 PM   #7
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Forget all the buttons... just have the cursor "cage" to your view. E.G. You have the cursor pointing directly at your HUD and you're looking straight ahead. You look up at the top row of switches to turn on your Navigation Lights and you still have the HUD in your view at the bottom of the screen where the mouse cursor has stayed. You move the mouse cursor up to the top of your view to click the lights. Now you need to look to the back and behind you for the panel switches by your right shoulder so you move your head/trackIR... and as you move the mouse gets caught by the top left edge of your screen and moves down with your view. You can then take the mouse cursor and aim at your switches after you have your view roughly centered on the back panel.

Make sense? I.E. the edge of the screen grabs your cursor and moves it... however as long as you don't let the edge of the screen touch the cursor it will stay fixed on whatever you were pointing at!
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aphelion79 View Post
Make sense?
Not really. About grabbing it by screen edge then yes, I wrote about that above. But with cursor relative to the cockpit and having 6DOF TIR you can't say about cursor pointing anywhere when you move your head as arneh said. You can only talk about cursor position in 3d cockpit and the position of your head. The place where cursor points is dependant on the 2 above.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:25 PM   #9
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Funny, I have no problems keeping the view 100% still with TrackIR4, even when looking down. At first it was positively nauseating to use because I wasn't used to having to keep my head still. Now, I can do it with no problems. The only thing I run into is when the cockpit view limitations cause weird things to happen, but no shaking.

Here's my suggestion (not really mine, this has been brought up before): in addition to keeping the cursor relative to the pit, let it also stick to the center of your view. That way you can just "look" at a button and press it with a mouse button you have mapped to your HOTAS.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:26 PM   #10
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yeah, so you suddenly have to test for the "depth" of the mouse cursor..hmm.tricky.

Better to leave it as an absolute grid location and deal with it..
We should all have multi touchscreens like Urze by the time it comes out anyway
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