POV vs. TrackIR

First off I don't want to get into a discussion regarding VR vs. these other two.

While I understand VR is the absolute greatest I have my reservations about it as far as the resolution and also don't have the $500.00 to drop down on a setup.

What I'm trying to find out if it's better just using the POV to look around as opposed to using the Track IR.

The POV is definitely more stable when performing functions in the cockpit.

Every time I'm trying to do something in the cockpit using my TrackIR setup if you don't keep your head absolutely still on what your looking at it moves out of context on you.

However when it comes to looking outside the cockpit and in dogfight mode the TrackIR is definitely better. Its so much harder to keep up with finding and holding targets in view using the POV hat when your jinking and banking around. Your sight doesn't stay on your target. The down side to the TrackIR is having to turn your head away from the monitor so it turns the TrackIR viewpoint but at the same time still looking at the monitor. Very uncomfortable feeling. I have yet to be able to set up the TrackIR so it moves your head around the cockpit slowly enough to do instrument controls and yet fast enough outside the cockpit to keep up with viewing targets.

I was wondering if there's a way to do both.

Pause TrackIR and use POV when you want to look around inside the cockpit but then go to TrackIR when you want to look outside the cockpit and keep up with your targets.

I've been watching a lot of YT DCS videos and I can't tell if there using POV or TrackIR.

For me i had some problems at first with trackir to get used to it and get it setup properly. I fallowed Jabbers youtube guide and set it up and used a profile for a few hours. After i got used to the profile i started to make small adjustments and fine tune it. I have used Trackir for about 40 hours the last 3 weeks and i very seldom have problems finding a button and press it.

What I had done was to completely remove the Pause key mapping from every module (made it something like RShift+Pause instead), and map TrackIR pause to that key. Wasn't comfortable enough though so I ran an Autohotkey script as well, that basically has this in it:

; --- Settings --------------------------------------------

SetKeyDelay 0

#HotkeyInterval 100

#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 2000

 

; --- Track IR Pause --------------------------------------

$AppsKey::

Send {Pause}

KeyWait AppsKey

Send {Pause}

Return

With that, holding down the context key (the one in between the RCtrl and RWin) pauses TrackIR, releasing it will make it track again. You could change it to fit to your likings. Bold is the key that's being pressed for momentary pause and italic is the key that's mapped in TIR software for pausing. Might also work on HOTAS with that, never tested as I always could reach that key easily anyway, change the "$AppsKey::" line accordingly:

$1Joy3:: ; This is my Trim Jostick button = Jostick ID #1 Button 3 -change this to your trim button.

; Use joystick test from autohotkey help to locate your button ID.

That was taken from PeterP's unchain rudder from trim script for the Ka-50 before that was an option in DCS. Just added the $ to make the function exclusive, overriding the mapping you might have in DCS.

I was testing VR. And I agree on your dogfight-issue. But once, putting on also by headset with still mounted TrackIR - TrackIR took over control of the view. However, it was not that smooth as usual. But maybe there is a way to switch of the VR for such a case.:huh:

To the thing of "hitting" the buttons with the mouse. I have some side buttons on the mouse, and added the "precision-button" on it. So whenever I need to click I could fastly switch it on and again off.:thumbup:

First off I don't want to get into a discussion regarding VR vs. these other two.

While I understand VR is the absolute greatest I have my reservations about it as far as the resolution and also don't have the $500.00 to drop down on a setup.

What I'm trying to find out if it's better just using the POV to look around as opposed to using the Track IR.

The POV is definitely more stable when performing functions in the cockpit.

Every time I'm trying to do something in the cockpit using my TrackIR setup if you don't keep your head absolutely still on what your looking at it moves out of context on you.

However when it comes to looking outside the cockpit and in dogfight mode the TrackIR is definitely better. Its so much harder to keep up with finding and holding targets in view using the POV hat when your jinking and banking around. Your sight doesn't stay on your target. The down side to the TrackIR is having to turn your head away from the monitor so it turns the TrackIR viewpoint but at the same time still looking at the monitor. Very uncomfortable feeling. I have yet to be able to set up the TrackIR so it moves your head around the cockpit slowly enough to do instrument controls and yet fast enough outside the cockpit to keep up with viewing targets.

I was wondering if there's a way to do both.

Pause TrackIR and use POV when you want to look around inside the cockpit but then go to TrackIR when you want to look outside the cockpit and keep up with your targets.

I've been watching a lot of YT DCS videos and I can't tell if there using POV or TrackIR.

To be honest, and not to undermine anybody else's fixes etc, all I did was set a very small deadzone and cranked smoothing up to max and i don't get the issue of bobbing anymore.

Though i use opentrack so not exactly sure what the options are with TrackIR.

It's all there you just gotta fiddle long enough to get the sweet spot :huh:

To be honest, and not to undermine anybody else's fixes etc, all I did was set a very small deadzone and cranked smoothing up to max and i don't get the issue of bobbing anymore.

Though i use opentrack so not exactly sure what the options are with TrackIR.

 

It's all there you just gotta fiddle long enough to get the sweet spot :huh:

Same here. It's all about setting the right curves in the TIR software. Since in-cockpit is mainly looking down, you can set downward tilt to be much less sensitive than looking up. As far as turning your head away from the screen, the key is ramping up the sensitivity on the outer ends of the curve so that as you move your head farther away from center, it takes less head movement to produce a given amount of rotation in your in-game view.

Also, I found that playing with the position (especially height) of the tracking camera helped a lot with erratic tracking that made things jumpier when I looked down into the cockpit.

I'd say I spent my first couple weeks with TrackIR constantly tweaking the curves and dead zones, and feeling very frustrated. But once I had it set up comfortably, I hardly ever had to mess with it again.

Me too. I have 7-9 degrees dead zone in both directions on all three axis. So there is actually a total dead zone of 14-18 degrees. I then have a pretty steep curve to get enough movement of the view. For instance I can look backward maybe 5 degrees more than straight back both to the left and the right.

TrackIR setup by craig stuard, on Flickr

This is yaw. You can see in the chart to the right that, when I snapped the screen shot, my head was moved 7.2 deg but the game was looking just .2 deg to the right. The only time I have problems clicking buttons are the ones hidden by the stick. I tried removing the stick but it looked weird so I just put up w/ moving my head around like I would need to in a real plane.

You can certainly use PoV commands, but you gotta devote a whole hat to it, which depending on controller and plane may be... inconvenient. Back in War Thunder it took me TWO hats, one for rotation and another to shift side to side (I flew 109s mostly, and as any 109 pilot knows, rear vis leaves a lot to be desired). They actually had a supremely customisable method for it, though. I dunno how tweakable DCS is in comparison though, as I had long since moved to TrackIR by then.

For TrackIR, I didn't like it at first, but found once I got used to it (and dialed in my settings) it is indispensable and so natural and intuitive. What curves you use will vary depending on preference and screen size. For example I have a 35'' curved screen, relatively close, so my curves were less aggressive than someone on say a 24'' screen who sits farther away. You gotta find the sweet spot, so you're not turning your head so far it consistently interferes with proper tracking. I can also vouch the external LED packs provide better consistency than the IR reflectors at a distance, and the higher resolution TrackIR5 works better at a distance as well.

I use the pause function in TrackIR a lot. Use my head to look a something like the CDU/UFC/DED/CK37, then pause the view to input information. I can move my head more freely (look at notes etc..) without having to "find" the unit again. When I'm done I unpause and resume TIR use.

I consider a custom profile basically mandatory. It really teaches you about the system and lets it cater to your individual tastes.

For view control when TrackIR is paused/not used, I just use the arrows on my numpad (default DCS POV bindings). I have no POV joystick bindings.

If I need quick view control I use head tracking. If I don't then I obviously have enough time to use the somewhat clunky keyboard commands.

to be honest all i do with trackir buttons is the center when i start off in the cockpit. from then on i am able to keep head steady enough that i do not need pause. i have my sensor on a 27 inch monitor about 4-5 inches from the left. this is right in plane with where the head piece centers. i have 2 monitors on articulated arms. when i fly i pull the monitor with the sensor towards me so it is centered on my keyboard. i also use two mice. one on left and one on right of keyboard. i can operate controls with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the stick.

Getting used to TrackIR takes time. Setting it takes time and testing but it's worth it. I use cutsom curves, different for up/down too, but all are linear, no deadzones (that would kill my immersion). With opentrack and leds on my head I never pause it in the game and looking around is smooth - no issue with precission.

i also use two mice. one on left and one on right of keyboard. i can operate controls with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the stick.

I to started using the left hand mouse. Easier to take hand off throttle to make adjustments than it is to let go of the joystick in the middle of flight. Especially in the mountains and/or close to the ground. Always crash so after looking around I found this little jewel. Has a center track ball with a horizontal mouse wheel that tracks around the ball. This was absolutely the best $40. I ever spent on a mouse.

i also use two mice. one on left and one on right of keyboard. i can operate controls with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the stick.

I to started using the left hand mouse. Easier to take hand off throttle to make adjustments than it is to let go of the joystick in the middle of flight. Especially in the mountains and/or close to the ground. Always crash so after looking around I found this little jewel. Has a center track ball with a horizontal mouse wheel that tracks around the ball. This was absolutely the best $40. I ever spent on a mouse.

[Tried to attach thumbnail but it won't let me because it says it's already attached in another thread.....Yeah so!!]

Here's the thread in case you're interested.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=280458

Sorry didn't mean to double post. Don't know how that happened.

Same here. It's all about setting the right curves in the TIR software. Since in-cockpit is mainly looking down, you can set downward tilt to be much less sensitive than looking up. As far as turning your head away from the screen, the key is ramping up the sensitivity on the outer ends of the curve so that as you move your head farther away from center, it takes less head movement to produce a given amount of rotation in your in-game view.

I could never deal with that. Anything else than a linear curve setting for TIR was just weird. Mine's set at 4 IIRC (and 8 for that other sim where the tracking is just half as sensitive with the same settings). That way, I'd check six when pointing the nose directly at the left or right screen border. I used the pausing mainly for entering things at zoomed-in view (30° FOV), for usual ops it was stable enough without.

Also, I found that playing with the position (especially height) of the tracking camera helped a lot with erratic tracking that made things jumpier when I looked down into the cockpit.

That's an important aspect and many don't think about it. I've got the tracker sitting on my monitor, but it's shifted to the left by approx. 15cm / 6" so it'd stare directly at the TrackClip Pro instead of my nose. Definately helps with the dead angles.

TrackIR always felt natural to me an needed little or no adjustment. I typically use the preset “smooth” profile and it works fine. For DCS it is a bit more sensitive than other sims but there is a need to move your head around a lot to see switches and such. Zooming in a bit on small controls helps. But I would never pause it. Don’t have any trouble holding my head still either.

I don’t see any advantage to the POV switch at all especially because they would take up HOTAS commands. Whatever oddity there might be in using TrackIR it’s 10,000x better than trying to look around by clicking buttons.

I had thought about a track pad. I used to do AutoCAD work and initially this was 'the thing'. Good for helping eliminating wrist issues. I have thought about this too

https://www2.razer.com/au-en/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-nostromo

Getting all the buttons right without looking would be difficult. I think a left hand mouse is a lot like what a real pilot would do with their finger.

I had thought about a track pad. I used to do AutoCAD work and initially this was 'the thing'. Good for helping eliminating wrist issues. I have thought about this too

 

https://www2.razer.com/au-en/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-nostromo

 

Getting all the buttons right without looking would be difficult. I think a left hand mouse is a lot like what a real pilot would do with their finger.

I was considering that same thing but decided to keep it simple.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YVMXLQC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also want to get this for all the key commands so I can get rid of the combination key commands on the keyboard. It's a little pricey but would be worth it for some of the more modern aircraft that have a slew of keyboard commands that you can program over to this.

https://www.amazon.com/XK-24-USB-Programmable-Keypad-Windows/dp/B0092SJ8YU/ref=sr_1_17_sspa?crid=2EZU4M3NYRILR&dchild=1&keywords=xkeys%2Bprogrammable%2Bkeypad&qid=1594265365&sprefix=X%2BKeys%2Caps%2C186&sr=8-17-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyUlFSRDFWTTNCQ1dNJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTk0NjEyM0MyWU1RR1RWSTVPVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzU2MTg3MTlXREdCUklPV0I3UiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0Zl9uZXh0JmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

This thing also has clear key covers so you can do labeling.

You can get it anywhere from 24 keys to 80 keys.

TrackIR always felt natural to me an needed little or no adjustment. I typically use the preset “smooth” profile and it works fine. For DCS it is a bit more sensitive than other sims but there is a need to move your head around a lot to see switches and such.

I keep seeing this "smoothing". What is that?

Is that a DCS thing or something for TrackIR.

Zooming in a bit on small controls helps. But I would never pause it. Don’t have any trouble holding my head still either.

I don't use the zoom feature or "Z" track on the TrackIR. Feels very uncomfortable and annoying leaning in your monitor to zoom.

Instead I have bound the antenna range knob on my throttle control to the zoom control.

It has a center point and I can turn it very easily with my left pointer finger by just rotating it back and forth. Actually works very well for this.

I also have the snap zoom view for the HUD set up.

Smoothing is exactly the TrackIR setting you want to apply if you are having trouble looking steadily at instruments or switches when you are zoomed in.

Prob the best Trackir tutorial out there at the moment. Follow it and you cannot go wrong -

Prob the best Trackir tutorial out there at the moment. Follow it and you cannot go wrong -

Tried it but I got some guy wiping jell all over his balls!!

Just kidding..If I see that Manscape commercial one more time I swear....

Checking out video now.

Thanks.

[update]

Just watched video. No not the guy greasing his ca-hones...lol

Anyway it was very informative. There were a lot of tweaks and things to setting up the TrackIR I didn't realize where there.

I especially liked how he keeps flying and brings up the TrackIR window so he can make fine tune adjustments while he's flying.

I keep seeing this "smoothing". What is that?

Is that a DCS thing or something for TrackIR.

I meant the preset profile in TrackIR called “smooth”.

I don't use the zoom feature or "Z" track on the TrackIR.

I don’t do that either. Some people map the zoom view to TrackIR like that. I use an axis on a controller like you’re describing. I do have the normal Z axis on TIR though.

I have thought about this too

 

https://www2.razer.com/au-en/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-nostromo

I have a Logitech G13 which is like that. It’s awesome for FPS games.

i also use two mice. one on left and one on right of keyboard. i can operate controls with my left hand while keeping my right hand on the stick.

So, there's no problem operating two mice at the same time? I don't have to plug out one mouse to operate the other? Sorry for the dumb question :huh:

So, there's no problem operating two mice at the same time? I don't have to plug out one mouse to operate the other? Sorry for the dumb question :huh:

nope. no trouble at all. you can map buttons on mouse(s) in DCS too. just have to get a gaming mouse. but if using mouse just for moving and clicking then any mouse will work.

'Z' axis on tackir is moving head forward and back. here is my profile. if you want to try then unzip to

%userprofile%\appdata\Roaming\NaturalPoint\TrackIR 5\Profiles

http://pcwiseman.com/downloads_files/sd-profile1.zip