ECM Effectiveness against AI SAM - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


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Old 03-06-2018, 11:49 AM   #11
Nero.ger
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5T1vPmA-l4
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'controlling' the Ka50 feels like a discussion with the Autopilot and trim system about the flight direction.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:04 PM   #12
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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=106022

Allready topic ^

Short : hoj in sam’s very weak PK because you dont know distance or alt etc.. only bearing


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Old 03-06-2018, 05:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dugong View Post
From what i remember the ECM is manifested as a simple range modifier for the sams where;

No ECM = Launch range x 1
Ecm On = Launch range x0.85

Multiplier varies with ecm type, i think.
Well again maybe my original question was lost and starting to see topic veer in the wrong direction.

Thanks @Dugong! that what I was looking for. To address other posts I know and am well familiar about ECM and the theory and use behind it. Just wanted to know how its coded if anyone knows or if its even working or implemented in DCS against ai SAM threats. Especially LOMAC is approaching a Decade old and half for FC3.

I will check and maybe record some data if there is a 15% reduction on launch range and maybe post my findings, and then we can use that in the community to our advantage as how it IS actually modeled in the sim.

Testing more with the AV-8B constant heading speed alt. finding 0 variance on several platforms
-ai sam rwr detection
-ai sam lock on distance.
-ai sam aquire.
-ai sam WEZ and launch.

thanks guys
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Old 03-06-2018, 05:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drag80 View Post
Ok first thing. If a plane can HOJ, why cant a SAM Radar do so?
What we have in DCS is noise jamming, likely some form of barrage jamming as well. It emits random noise on all frequencies it can at max power. This denies any range or doppler information so the radar has to fall back to some degraded angle-only tracking of the jammer (HOJ). It's true that every radar could theoretically do this but since you don't know range it's very hard to judge when to fire and the Pk for these shots isn't great either.

Realistically noise jamming is never done by fighter jets. What they do is deceptive ECM where you try and deceive the radar tracking you and make them tracking a false target or break lock alltogether. Good deceptive jamming won't even be detected by the radar unless you have a well trained human looking over it and even then there are times when you really can't do much against it. This just as basic knowledge to be aware of.

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Stealth Air crafts keep their Radar and counter measures off in order not to be detected. Moment you turn on ECM you give away your location. Have you ever heard of a B 2 bomber flying with ECM on? or a F22 raptor?
No, they mostly don't. Their radars are built with LPI in mind and jammers are actually more effective when you use them on stealth planes as the jammer has to use less power than one that has to cover a huge skin return from a non-stealthy aircraft.

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A F-16 was short down by Russain SAM. The SAM operator just had approx idea of the Aircraft location. He fired two sams and turned on his Radar at last moments. When the pilot got missile warning it was already too late.
That's a story told by media, a shot like that is impossible, SARH missiles such as the SA-6 used in this instance have to be tuned to the FCR, i.e. it has to be emitting. If you don't do that the missile will track very badly or likely not at all.

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ECM of a fighter jet has 120 degrees coverage. What about the remaining 240 degrees? If the missile is coming from the remaining 240 Degrees ?
What fighter? That varies wildly between aircraft, F-15/Su-27 cover 120° fore and aft, jammers that use AESA can have 360° coverage.

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Are SAM Radars not more powerful than what we have in Aircrafts? If an aircraft can burn through an ECM at the specific distance, why cant sam Radar have a burn in distance?
They are, of course, but also remember that the jammer always has the advantage as its signals only have to go one way, the radar faces two-way propagation loss. Burn-through distance will be higher obviously though.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:18 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by red_coreSix View Post
That's a story told by media, a shot like that is impossible, SARH missiles such as the SA-6 used in this instance have to be tuned to the FCR, i.e. it has to be emitting. If you don't do that the missile will track very badly or likely not at all.
Not for media but for actual SAM operators then....

As You can operate many Soviet SAM systems without search or track radar up to the final seconds. Question is just how do you get the target approach warning (usually visually by other means) and then estimate the range.

It really is "Go! And search for the target while listening my steering commands until you do!"

You can surprise targets by doing that but it is very tricky as you can very well fly past the intercept point as you are on time operation of estimated range.

Newer than first gen SARH missile guidance doesn't require to get a lock before launch, it only requires to deliver to command system what code does the missile listen.

First the missiles fly with inertial guidance and only in terminal phase they swap to semi-active guidance listening emissions off the target. That is why the jamming systems needs to listen not just search or tracking radars but as well radio frequencies for guidance commands as you might very well be fired upon without single radar blip in RWR before it screams and missile is just couple seconds away.

That is as well reason why low visibility weather (cumulus clouds, low light, rain, mist, low altitude etc) are critical for SAM systems as you can't use a advanced features to surprise target.

The whole electronic warfare is very limited and simplified in DCS, rendering CAS operations and fighters operations super easy and simple compared what it should be.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
As You can operate many Soviet SAM systems without search or track radar up to the final seconds. Question is just how do you get the target approach warning (usually visually by other means) and then estimate the range.

It really is "Go! And search for the target while listening my steering commands until you do!"
Nonsense for SARH, this can work with command guidance SAMs like SA-2/3 where you can guide them via TV track, but not for the SA-6.

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Newer than first gen SARH missile guidance doesn't require to get a lock before launch, it only requires to deliver to command system what code does the missile listen.

First the missiles fly with inertial guidance and only in terminal phase they swap to semi-active guidance listening emissions off the target. That is why the jamming systems needs to listen not just search or tracking radars but as well radio frequencies for guidance commands as you might very well be fired upon without single radar blip in RWR before it screams and missile is just couple seconds away.
Wrong, every SARH missile has to be tuned to the FCR before launch, and usually, once they're tuned and spun up, you have to launch them pretty soon too. It's true that some SARH missiles have a datalink proiding mid-course updates when the seeker is out of range but that doesn't mean you can launch them in some TWS-type mode like you do with active missiles.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Haukka81 View Post
Lots of words and almost all horrible wrong.




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What is exactly wrong? ECM is like a torch in the dark this is true. And like a torch in the dark.you see the light but nothing eles, só, you see someone is "over there" but you can't lock him on because you can't get the exact position. So that statement is 100%.

We can go further to how ECM is working in real, vs DCS but... Nothing wrong with that statement.

That is why you should only switch them on in the correct moment. By the way, AV8 ECM should only work when you receive a signal from enemy radar. If not, it works only in receive only mode.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ESAc_matador View Post
What is exactly wrong? ECM is like a torch in the dark this is true. And like a torch in the dark.you see the light but nothing eles, só, you see someone is "over there" but you can't lock him on because you can't get the exact position. So that statement is 100%.

We can go further to how ECM is working in real, vs DCS but... Nothing wrong with that statement.

That is why you should only switch them on in the correct moment. By the way, AV8 ECM should only work when you receive a signal from enemy radar. If not, it works only in receive only mode.
Your RCS alone is like a torch in the dark unless you're stealth (and even then, you're at least a match that every radar will eventually spot), but modern self-protection jammers usually only activate when receiving signals from radars pinging them. DRFM does a lot more than just conceal the range to a target like in DCS, it will throw out false targets and will also do all sorts of funkiness to make radars drop the lock as soon as it is attempted, stuff not modeled in DCS because the capabilities of each ECM system and how well various radars can handle them is very classified.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:10 AM   #19
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We already had this discussion

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=203973

Same OP, same date.

The answer is YES, they do have an effect on AI SAMs
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHaDoW STeP BG View Post
We already had this discussion

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=203973

Same OP, same date.

The answer is YES, they do have an effect on AI SAMs

Thanks for your contribution to the thread Shadowstep, However you obviously did not read my original post at the beginning of the month. I stated that I posted on here since I was not getting any responses to a previous post on the main Thread, and this was a much more active group.

furthermore a simple YES they do work was not the answer I was seeking as all of my tests proved otherwise. I have found the lua coding for them on the FC aircraft since my original post. This indicated that there is a threat detection reduction by fractions numerical ranges, however in my in-game tests I was not able to replicate.

Besides the simple YES can you shed some light on this ? engagements ranges and missile accuracy in game have not been "noticeably" affected for me albeit the pod being activated on the harrier.

I will post with the community once I have transcribed my information
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