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Old 08-15-2018, 12:54 PM   #81
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Spin behavior, use of aileron in the spin and forward stick authority has greatly improved with todays patch
E.g. One can enter an inverted spin from inverted level flight now.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:57 PM   #82
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Really? What about flap drag? Have they fixed that one?
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:10 PM   #83
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I don't think so. Still can't get here to accelerate above 160km/h in level flight.
This is not enough to climb with the flaps extended, neither for the German manual go-around (160km/h) and even less so for the go-around procedure in the English manual (170km/h)

edit: ground adjustable trim tabs still don't work.

Last edited by bbrz; 08-15-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:32 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by AcroGimp View Post
In-Spin aileron as I recall causes a slight flattening, Out-Spin aileron significantly accelerates the rate of rotation and flattens the spin as well. This is called an Aggravated Spin and I demonstrate one in a video I linked on my Advanced Spins thread.

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Hey John ... the in-spin aileron IRL seems cause additional 'flicks' during the spin... it's really uncomfortable! It kind of ends up as a hybrid 'flick' and spin, and it's not a constant rotation... sort of jerks you about, surging during the spin. But as with everything except flat-spins, she's a pussycat to deal with! I only discovered because I was teaching someone and they had introduced some aileron and I was trying to figure out why the spin didn't feel right!

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Old 08-15-2018, 03:54 PM   #85
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I just finally got around to booting up my DCS computer and will be giving this module a go... I know Konstantin has been involved and helping out with this and real word data, so I've got high hopes they'll get everything solved and ironed out. He's vastly experienced in yaks!

So... my experience... I have over 1000 hours on the Yak 52 and every flight continue to learn.

Seen a couple of comments about the flaps/drag and speed vs RPM. it is VERY draggy. Generally speaking, you're at 82% when the flaps come down, and only go to 100% on final. Try being at 82%, it still requires a lot of power (remember power is throttle/manifold pressure, not RPM). There is a huge pitch up moment when they come down and the speed washes of REALLY quickly with the drag. It's tough to maintain 170 until you start coming downhill. I will maintain 170 for most of final to give me a little extra energy and bleed that back as you get to the threshold. The 52 glides like a brick, and it gives you an extra couple of seconds to figure things out before speed hits 150 for the glide if the engine stops. (There is nothing wrong with the correct procedure of being at 150, just like the energy, personally). Down hill you should maintain 170 no problem.

On the go-round ... forget it... you MUST retract the flaps early or you aren't going anywhere. Gear can wait till you're positive rate up... remembering that it'll sink a little as you retract the flaps (hence leave gear down!). It'll easily accelerate to 170 then (another good reason to be at 170 already on final... #justsayin).

Will let you know what I find in the module. Excited to play!!!

Last edited by archangel1973uk; 08-15-2018 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:09 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
Spin behavior, use of aileron in the spin and forward stick authority has greatly improved with todays patch
E.g. One can enter an inverted spin from inverted level flight now.
BTW - if you're looking at a normal (Erect or Inverted) spin in the 52... never use aileron. Rudder and elevator is all that's needed... and actually... with application of rudder and even relaxing the pull (or push) it'll come out of the spin probably before you get to neutral let alone full spin recovery.

Flat spins are different... into spin aileron is used to break the plane of the spin along with full elevator deflection and I was also taught to use full power. The rate of rotation will increase just before it breaks... and you need to centralize very quickly afterwards or it'll quickly flip the other way (inverted or erect) to how it started... nasty! Personally I don't ever practice or teach these cos I'm a wimp and I fix it at the warning signs before it develops, I learned and practiced it before, don't intend to do it again!
I'll leave that to people with bigger balls than me. (At least I'm honest!)... 'Gimp over to you on that! ... incidentally peeps... you should know that 'Gimp deserve mucho respect... he's the only person I know that does the crazy stuff he does with only one leg ... Kudos John ... see you soon.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:38 PM   #87
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1. if you're looking at a normal (Erect or Inverted) spin in the 52... never use aileron

2. Seen a couple of comments about the flaps/drag and speed vs RPM. it is VERY draggy. Generally speaking, you're at 82% when the flaps come down, and only go to 100% on final. Try being at 82%, it still requires a lot of power (remember power is throttle/manifold pressure, not RPM). There is a huge pitch up moment when they come down and the speed washes of REALLY quickly with the drag. It's tough to maintain 170 until you start coming downhill...

3.On the go-round ... forget it... you MUST retract the flaps early or you aren't going anywhere.
As I mentioned a few times before. Ask 2 pilots about a single airplane and you get 3 different answers

1. I only mentioned this because it did look wrong to me that opposite aileron while maintaining full pro spin rudder and full up elevator did cause the Yak-52 to stop spinning.

2. That's pretty close to what we are having now, but quite a bit different what AcroGimp and the manual says.

3. This doesn't match the procedure from the German and the English manual at all.

Last edited by bbrz; 08-15-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:56 PM   #88
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As I mentioned a few times before. Ask 2 pilots about a single airplane and you get 3 different answers

1. I only mentioned this because it did look wrong to me that opposite aileron while maintaining full pro spin rudder and full up elevator did cause the Yak-52 to stop spinning.

2. That's pretty close to what we are having now, but quite a bit different what AcroGimp and the manual says.

3. This doesn't match the procedure from the German and the English manual at all.
1. Ah - I see the mistake... Don't maintain pro spin rudder - that's not part of the recovery.
a) Traditional FULL Spin Recovery (which works for a 52, but is overkill) is:
Close the Throttle and check height (in case you should just abandon); check needle; apply opposite rudder; move control column centrally forward (or as appropriate).
b) Abbreviated for an aircraft like the 52... cos it generally stops instantly... check needle, opposite rudder, control column centrally forward (or as appropriate). In the 52, a stab on the opposite rudder and bringing the control column to neutral is usually enough however to stop the spin instantly and in the incipient stages just easing the pressure is enough to stop it flicking.

2. I just finally got to play with the module; the aircraft is a little more slippery generally than the real one. The Yak is pretty speed stable but it really doesn't accelerate as well IRL; consequently it maintained 170 downhill a little TOO easily and the flare is a little too abrupt. I'll try and get some video footage next time I fly.

3. I'll look at the manual at some point and see where it differs and get back to you... Sometimes it's about semantics and lessons learned. Pretty much every aircraft though... power & pitch, then flaps quickly, then gear. If you're in a multi-stage flap aircraft (unlike the 52), then you'll get rid of the drag flap stages immediately and leave the lift flap stages, then take the gear on positive climb, then clean up the remaining flap in stages at safe altitudes and speeds. Remember you want to get rid of the biggest drag causing things as quickly as possible while still maintaining a viably flying (and usually climbing) aircraft. As you see downwind... the yak barely wants to fly level with the flaps down and shed loads of power... forget trying to climb!
<Anyone reading: I don't have time to type all the variations and combinations and situations so please don't jump on this explanation with specifics or cos I phrased something poorly... I am aware of them; this is a general rule>

More to come... Feel free to ask any questions/feedback and I'll try and back up answers with explanations and real videos where possible. I'm sure AcroGimp or Konstantin will do the same.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:06 PM   #89
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P.S. I'll see if it works in the sim, but generally speaking with the 52 ... any time she's about to bite you (incipient spin, flick, out of energy at any attitude, approach/entry into a flat spin as it starts to go)... just close the throttle and centralize everything. It might take a bit and it might be really uncomfortable waiting, but at worst she'll just flop her nose down and build speed up. Obviously on a flick cos you pulled too hard in a turn, that's a little bit of overkill, but you get the idea. It's the engine torque (often coupled with huge control inputs that makes her bite you!)

Prime time to get into a flat spin, that's not aggressive and will catch you unawares is to be trying to do a really tight pattern in the final turn... you're concentrating on the runway... don't look at your speed, get slow, use a little extra rudder with the higher bank for a tight turn, carrying power cos of the drag... and.... ....
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:15 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel1973uk View Post
BTW - if you're looking at a normal (Erect or Inverted) spin in the 52... never use aileron. Rudder and elevator is all that's needed... and actually... with application of rudder and even relaxing the pull (or push) it'll come out of the spin probably before you get to neutral let alone full spin recovery.

Flat spins are different... into spin aileron is used to break the plane of the spin along with full elevator deflection and I was also taught to use full power. The rate of rotation will increase just before it breaks... and you need to centralize very quickly afterwards or it'll quickly flip the other way (inverted or erect) to how it started... nasty! Personally I don't ever practice or teach these cos I'm a wimp and I fix it at the warning signs before it develops, I learned and practiced it before, don't intend to do it again!
I'll leave that to people with bigger balls than me. (At least I'm honest!)... 'Gimp over to you on that! ... incidentally peeps... you should know that 'Gimp deserve mucho respect... he's the only person I know that does the crazy stuff he does with only one leg ... Kudos John ... see you soon.
Thanks Limey! Congrats on the nuptials BTW. Very happy for you and Midget.

Gennady doesn't teach aileron for any spin recovery, DOSAAF focuses on min height loss, I'll try a little in-spin during a flat next time I focus on spins.

We'll have to do some DCS MP form acro when you have time, maybe real world too.

'Gimp
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