Jump to content

Landing Gazelle


Cunning_Fox

Recommended Posts

I'm embarassed to admit this, but every time I try to land the gazelle - it goes crazy. It starts acting like its namesake if it saw a leopard chasing it.

 

When I ride it into the battle or otherwise I am flying ninja around buildings - it acts fine. Like a broken in horse that knows how to act around gunshots. Steady and responsive.

 

But when I try to land it, it turns into a Bull-from-hell Rodeo.

 

It goes all over the place. Suddenly, it starts drifting to one side completely unexpectedly. As I try to correct it, it turns into a polka dance and soon, my pilot is either going into the local ER or is wiping his lunch off the windshield.

 

What do?

 

I have positive curves for roll and pitch at around +15-17 and a deadzone of 3

For pedals I use my joy twist with -7 curve and 4 deadzone.

 

It seems to work when I'm flying, but not when I'm landing.

 

Using X-55

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SO8mt0fvt6-vAEyELxw-xyeth8V_YUUG/view?usp=sharing


Edited by Cunning_Fox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"When I ride it into the battle or otherwise I am flying ninja around buildings - it acts fine. Like a broken in horse that knows how to act around gunshots. Steady and responsive."

 

 

LOL... Could not have said it better myself!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's normal you need to keep the heli s attitude level when in ground effect, because it's smaller it's more responsive so a lot will depend on your cyclic input. Try saturation to reduce sensitivity of cyclic input this will help reduce pilot induced oscillation. :D

 

When setting down initially reference something say 20 mtrs away, practice that and then reference slightly closer objects.

 

Hover practice will help here. ;)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I have positive curves for roll and pitch at around +15-17 and a deadzone of 3

For pedals I use my joy twist with -7 curve and 4 deadzone.

 

It seems to work when I'm flying, but not when I'm landing.

 

Using X-55

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SO8mt0fvt6-vAEyELxw-xyeth8V_YUUG/view?usp=sharing

 

Personal preference and all ditch the dead spot and curves and try saturation at about 70% for X and Y.

 

With dead spot your likely having a situation where nothing happens then all of a sudden a lot happens then you have to correct your input, not real good close to the ground.

 

Check the amount of cyclic input I use with helicopters and especially the Gazelle less is more.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Flying the Gazelle here and I don't use dead-zones or curves, also as with what I've gathered from those flying the UH-1H; don't try to correct every little deviation, make subtle corrections for each moment and wait a second to understand the effect it's had, because it's all too easy to attempt to apply multiple inputs to correct for all the yaw, pitch and roll moments and it become a chasing game of PIOs. Eventually it can all be pieced together with muscle memory.

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know about the ground effect, but I thought it was meant to stabilize you, not knock you out of place.

Not stabilize you, quite the contrary. But it will reduce the needed power to stay airborne. When you learned to hover close to ground (in ground effect, IGE) reasonably steady with the help of previous comments, have a glance at how much power you are using. Then climb a little bit, say 3-4 rotor diameters, and do the same (out of ground effecr, OGE). You should now be using more power than close to ground. Mind you, due to the small rotor you really need to be close to ground for IGE in the Gazelle I believe, and it's hard to really hover without any forward/aft and lateral movement when at some height.

Helicopters and Viggen

DCS 1.5.7 and OpenBeta

Win7 Pro 64bit

i7-3820 3.60GHz

P9X79 Pro

32GB

GTX 670 2GB

VG278H + a Dell

PFT Lynx

TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Well, I ditched the curves and dead zones, put the string back on the X-55 and it flies well.

 

Until I try to hover.

 

Then it starts shaking, spinning out of control to the left side for no reason, loses altitude and when I correct it - goes up like a flare for all the tanks to shoot it down.

 

Why it goes so unstable I don't know.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ijSnWw52-b2pd9jcbTWNDWH7WorqjybJ/view?usp=sharing


Edited by Cunning_Fox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay had a watch of your track. Without directly seeing your control inputs (there's probably a feature in Tacview I don't know about, or don't have access to with the free version) it seems like you're over-correcting in several places, but most noticeably AT input, this would compound other areas due to each control having an influence on the other, at that point you're trying to control the yaw and then notice you're out of position and give it loads of cyclic input and it turns into a chasing game.

 

It's not gonna be easy with twist grip for AT, but subtle inputs will be the key, so coming into a hover for you might be best doing it progressively, slowly scrubbing off speed, I did notice you do this, and as AT input becomes noticeably necessary; go easy with it, correct for each thing in turn.

 

The difficulty for you I think is keeping a heading in the hover, and then everything else comes unstuck, AT input creates subtle moments in other areas which while if unchecked can cause a series of PIOs if unnoticed or acted on late.

 

When in hover with the Gazelle and most all convention rotary wings; a constant off-centre amount of pressure on the AT pedals is required to maintain a heading, adjusting the collective and cyclic change the amount, too. I think all that would be much easier with pedals, because currently one hand is doing the work of two inputs, I cannot imagine this is easy.

 

Apologies if any of this is old-ground and teaching you things you already knew.

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But there's more

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aFl3sikStM19nVj8AnYWOo7O7gCl4BkW/view?usp=sharing

 

It seems that during rebinding of keys I forgot to unbind my Pedal brake from my cyclic. I flew again and played with curves for pedals. But this time - things went worse. As I try to engage auto-hover the heli goes out of control; not only this, but the helicopter loses altitude whilst losing speed which is completely illogical.

 

Adding more collective makes it rise too fast. It should not drop like a stone when I am decreasing speed, nor should it shoot upwards as I gradually increase the collective.

 

I'm flying with pedals both times. In fact, I fly MUCH better with twist. I find myself consciously resisting the urge to twist my joystick.


Edited by Cunning_Fox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

note the torque required to get into a hover.

its around 40%

 

so you fly between 80-90% and then need to drop it a long way for the hover. a lot further than the huey or the hip.

 

why it feels touchy.

 

use the gauge. to find 40% and she wont bob around so much in the hover as you juggle the collective around that point.

 

she is also a scout helicopter. so her strong point does not need to be landing. like a transport helicopter.

 

why she is nice to fly but a dog to land.

kind of like the mig21..

My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm ACTUALLY good in MiG-21.

 

I really like flying this Gazelle thing, but its behavior is bipolar to me.

 

I don't like her attitude when I get near-hover speeds. I don't like it even more when I watch the video in this thread where the Gazelle flying is done so well and I'm having so much trouble.

 

If you've noticed, I am flying at low collective. I need just enough of it to go to 100 kph and maintain that low altitude.

 

Still, as I am trying to hover she either flares and shoots for the space or sinks on the tail like a ship going down.


Edited by Cunning_Fox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I need to get the UH-1H to compare this against.

 

Whew well that was some bucking bronco right there on watching your second track - I was playing Bad Moon Rising CCR at the same time for effect - it's tough to say what's at play, because from my perspective it does look like a series of over-corrections again, I'd be looking to see if the input devices are calibrated correctly at that point and not over sensitive, though from the sounds of it you've probably already ticked that box.

 

I initially found it tough to spot land the Gazelle, but I've not had it get wild on me like that, and nice one on trying to see if steady speeds can tame it, it will of course do about 200 kph without issue, but getting into a prompt hover takes some relatively aggressive inputs.

 

I did notice you seemingly enter VRS once or twice too, or at least have a high right of descent in the hover, rather than rip up the collective at that point; exit it laterally with cyclic.

 

Kudos for sticking at it though, it's probably one of those things that'll have everything you're doing click in place.

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know - increase lateral velocity to counter VRS.

 

I don't know what properly calibrated is though, since everything is set to 0 deadzone and only 15 curve on the pedals.

 

They are g940 pedals, in the Logitech software the sensitivity is set to 100%, otherwise all curves and deadzones are at 0.

 

I've got a light touch too and I have played IL-2 with a joystick that had no spring for about 5 years (and I couldn't edit the curves so I had to treat it like a brain surgeon treats the laser scalpel).

 

Still, maybe I'm losing my touch or maybe, just maybe - I need to learn how to actually fly helos. I've got all the modules, so maybe Mi-8 would be a good place to re-start my learning again.

 

Gonna practice a bit and make another track, stay tuned for my Cirque du Gazelle.

 

*puts on a playlist by CCR and goes for another run*


Edited by Cunning_Fox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[...] I don't know what properly calibrated is though, since everything is set to 0 deadzone and only 15 curve on the pedals. [...]

 

Maybe it's different for each manufacturer's product, but for my CH stuff they offer a calibration tool, because for whatever reason if you don't do that; full ranges are lost in some axis and that can lead to over-sensitivity or loss of range, so after booting into Win; I have to go through calibrating each input device, and the range of motion for each axis. Laborious, but necessary (for CH things).

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

do you use ED's trim abstraction or do you fly without trimming and use muscle memory?

 

the huey has a constant roll to the left and right.

she wallows.

after you fly her a while you just learn to counter this.

 

in the gazelle its pitching up and down. but again I learned to counter this automatically with muscle memory.

 

although having flown the gazelle for three weeks my huey flying has gone to pot.

 

it feels like a transport for the first time.

 

damn scouts.

My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's trim on the CH stick, but I never use it, I trim within the simulation, and due to flying out there in the real world I was taught to always make use of trim, it lessens the workload. You'd be surprised how you can think you could hold a constant pressure on a stick in a real aircraft and keep level or climb/descent constant, one glance away whilst looking out for traffic and when your gaze returns to the front and pit; you're no longer where you want it to be. It was trim for level and show me your hands from the get-go.

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is more the joystick controller you are using, the Gazelle is as easy to land as any of the other DCS Helis.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w4zzXNyZqiHr9qcDnuMLnyA_nW6owgs3/view?usp=sharing

 

Tried my best, didn't fare any better.

 

The helicopter hovers when it wants to, doesn't listen to my commands, starts spinning for no reason to the left when speed decreases.

 

Obviously, since it doesn't hover where I want it to I get shot down.

 

I think this is more the joystick controller you are using, the Gazelle is as easy to land as any of the other DCS Helis.

 

 

That's not what people are saying in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's trim on the CH stick, but I never use it, I trim within the simulation, and due to flying out there in the real world I was taught to always make use of trim, it lessens the workload. You'd be surprised how you can think you could hold a constant pressure on a stick in a real aircraft and keep level or climb/descent constant, one glance away whilst looking out for traffic and when your gaze returns to the front and pit; you're no longer where you want it to be. It was trim for level and show me your hands from the get-go.

 

Sorry but you need VR, just saying. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

...

That's not what people are saying in general.

 

Don't know about that and it's kinda odd as it feels just fine for me, interesting..

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but you need VR, just saying. :thumbup:

 

Love to, but TrackIR works well enough for me at the mo', looks/sounds awesome though.

 

Fox; in that track - I should've mentioned - it seems you can only view my inputs whilst in the cockpit, I think all my TrackIR inputs are included though, apologies for not cutting out the startup, you could fast-forward through it with Ctrl+Z and then go to normal speed with Shift+Z

 

At no point did I engage auto-hover etc.

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hovering requires as much Rudder input as it does Cyclic input (and some collective).

When hovering, some of the forward/backward movement is controlled with the Rudder Pedals. The rest is controlled with Cyclic.

 

The Gazelle uses very little of a Cyclic stick's range of motion.

 

One way to ease yourself into Hover Practice is by taking off, flying forward and doing skid landings (i.e. minimal hover ... more like sliding to a stop with forward motion).

Just take-off and land, take-off and land.

 

Furthermore, use Trim for much of your flight. The better you are trimmed for a Hover, the easier the Hover will be (and less input required by Stick and Rudder).

SnowTiger:joystick:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...