Harrier Cold start issue...

So,

Following Chucks guide to startup the harrier...

I get to step 21 (turn on engine)

Flip the switch and nothing. Does the throttle need to get moved as well? I mean the engine doesn't even try to spin. ENG ST forward, which flips the APU switch immediately backward.

I do have the gen and APU warning lights on if that matters but I "think" thats normal?

Also i can't find the "parking brake" mentioned in step 1 anywhere.

I can use the autostart, which per the messages does things in more detail.

Is the guide out of date?

You need to release the parking brake first. It's difficult to see, but it's to the left of the throttle. Best to assign a key (default P??) and look into that direction when you flick it. Then you see where it actually is. Page 16 of Chuck's manual shows it, too.

Without the parking brake released, you cannot flick the other switch (throttle cutoff) and therefore the throttle can't go into idle and the engine won't start.

You can ignore the APU. You don't usually need it in this plane.

So,

 

Following Chucks guide to startup the harrier...

 

I get to step 21 (turn on engine)

 

Flip the switch and nothing. Does the throttle need to get moved as well? I mean the engine doesn't even try to spin. ENG ST forward, which flips the APU switch immediately backward.

 

I do have the gen and APU warning lights on if that matters but I "think" thats normal?

 

Also i can't find the "parking brake" mentioned in step 1 anywhere.

 

I can use the autostart, which per the messages does things in more detail.

 

Is the guide out of date?

Without a track, is hard to tell what you are missing. I can only assume your not waiting enough time. Keep in mind if the APU is running, when you engage the engine start, the APU will shut down, spool down then start the engine. You don't need the parking brake off to start.

a. On a direct engine start, the GTS normally lights off in about 5 seconds, after which the engine begins to rotate.

b. On a translation start (APU started first), there is a 10 second deceleration of the APU before the GTS engages to start the engine.

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There are hundreds of you tube videos showing you how to start.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dcs+harrier+engine+start

No, you do not need to unlock the parking brake to start the engine. That should be one of the last things you do, just before starting to taxi.

You must activate the Throttle Cutoff Lever --I don't think you can do this with the mouse, you must use the keyboard, or have it set to a controller switch.

After flipping the ENG ST (Engine Start) switch upward, you will hear the engine winding up. When it has reached 92 RPM, activate the Throttle Cutoff Lever. This will allow you to push the throttle forward about a half an inch (you can watch it in-cockpit) --If you are using a throttle quadrant, push the throttle forward a little and then pull it back. The in-cockpit throttle will stay in the idle position (Warning! if you activate the Throttle Cutoff Lever, while the engine is running, it will pull the throttle back to behind idle, and the engine will cutoff, and you will have to restart it-- and you will hear the engine firing up, with the RPM's going up to about 285.

No, you do not need to unlock the parking brake to start the engine. That should be one of the last things you do, just before starting to taxi.

 

You must activate the Throttle Cutoff Lever --I don't think you can do this with the mouse, you must use the keyboard, or have it set to a controller switch.

 

After flipping the ENG ST (Engine Start) switch upward, you will hear the engine winding up. When it has reached 92 RPM, activate the Throttle Cutoff Lever. This will allow you to push the throttle forward about a half an inch (you can watch it in-cockpit) --If you are using a throttle quadrant, push the throttle forward a little and then pull it back. The in-cockpit throttle will stay in the idle position (Warning! if you activate the Throttle Cutoff Lever, while the engine is running, it will pull the throttle back to behind idle, and the engine will cutoff, and you will have to restart it-- and you will hear the engine firing up, with the RPM's going up to about 285.

You don't need to activate the cut off either, and there is a decimal there, so 9.2% RPM. You should be able to move the throttle forward at 5.0% with parking brake on to allow for normal start. The RL manual states at indication of RPM, but I always wait until at least 5.0%.

Ok

Well doing either this youtube procedure or chucks guide works right up to flipping the ENG switch (right after the master alarm switchoff). At that point I hear a small whine for a few seconds, but no RPM is indicated on the analog or Digital Engine display. I've tried it with the idle lock on and off and the throttle a tiny bit forward and still nogo.

If you have the BATT on, and you flip the ST ENG switch and you don’t get any engine rotation, my guess is it’s not getting any fuel. Check the Fuel Shutoff handle is down, and the pump switches are on (forward) before starting.

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Ok

 

Well doing either this youtube procedure or chucks guide works right up to flipping the ENG switch (right after the master alarm switchoff). At that point I hear a small whine for a few seconds, but no RPM is indicated on the analog or Digital Engine display. I've tried it with the idle lock on and off and the throttle a tiny bit forward and still nogo.

 

Again, without a track we will spend hours and several pages trying to figure out or guess what you missing. Could you post a track please.

If the engine is not spooling up either your throttle is not in the off position or your fuel pumps are off.

9 times out of 10 your throttle is not in the off position.

Set your throttle to 0%, go look for the throttle cut off key in the assignments menu. And press it. Then try spooling the engine.

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Well I'll be damned, you're right! You can release the Parking Brake to be able to push the throttle forward to start the engine too.

But this seems to be wrong. Both Chuck's Guide and the Pocket Guide don't talk about the Parking Brakes until after the engine is running and you want to taxi. It is also illogical.

Playing around with the Throttle Cutoff Lever, when getting into the cockpit cold, you cannot move the throttle at all.

Throttle Lever at Cutoff (furthest back possible)

- Release the Throttle Cutoff Lever = Throttle Lever can be moved forward to idle, once at idle, it cannot return to lower than idle.

- Release the Park Brake = Throttle can be advanced to idle and beyond, but once at idle, it cannot return to lower than idle.

Throttle Lever at Idle with Parking Brake On

Throttle Lever cannot be advanced beyond idle, nor reduced below idle, which seems to me to be correct.

Throttle Lever at Idle with Parking Brake Off

Throttle Lever can be advance to anywhere beyond idle, and returned to idle, but not to less than idle.

Throttle Lever at Idle with Parking Brake On or Off

Lifting the Throttle Cutoff Lever pulls the Throttle Lever back to the Cutoff position, where it is locked.

--

Okaaaaaay I've downloaded the NATOPS Flight Manual Navy Model AV-8B/TAV-8B 161573 And Up Aircraft ( 15 March 2008 )

Page 2-15, section 2.4.1

".. When the throttle is fully aft, the high pressure fuel shutoff valve is closed and cuts off fuel supply to the engine. Forward movement to the idle rpm position (1) opens the shutoff valve and a ratchet stop prevents movement back except when a spring loaded throttle cutoff lever, on the front of the throttle, is lifted. .."

(1) Note, it says nothing about releasing the Throttle Cutoff Lever to advance the Throttle to idle.

".. An interference catch ensures that the throttle lever cannot be moved past a parking BRAKE LOCK position when the lock is engaged. .."

This is not how it is working.

EDIT:

From my above list:

Throttle Lever at Cutoff (furthest back possible)

- Release the Throttle Cutoff Lever = Throttle Lever can be moved forward to idle, once at idle, it cannot return to lower than idle. <== This is wrong. You should be able to advance the Throttle to Idle without doing anything first.

- Release the Park Brake = Throttle can be advanced to idle and beyond, but once at idle, it cannot return to lower than idle. <== This is correct, but it's not the proper way to do things.

Throttle Lever at Idle with Parking Brake On

Throttle Lever cannot be advanced beyond idle, nor reduced below idle, which seems to me to be correct. <== This is correct.

Throttle Lever at Idle with Parking Brake Off

Throttle Lever can be advance to anywhere beyond idle, and returned to idle, but not to less than idle. <== This is correct.

Throttle Lever at Idle with Parking Brake On or Off

Lifting the Throttle Cutoff Lever pulls the Throttle Lever back to the Cutoff position, where it is locked. <== This is correct in that is simulates lifting the Throttle Cutoff Lever AND pulling the Throttle Lever back to the cutoff position.

If the engine is not spooling up either your throttle is not in the off position or your body pumps are off.

9 times out of 10 your throttle is not in the off position.

 

Set your throttle to 0%, go look for the throttle cut off key in the assignments menu. And press it. Then try spooling the engine.

 

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I'll give that a try. Visually the throttle is back all the way, is there another way to check the setting?

I've tried it several ways now, throttle unlocked (i can do this by clicking on throttle or by disengaging parking brake), locked from the start (can't move from the begining) and nothing is working.

Again, without a track we will spend hours and several pages trying to figure out or guess what you missing. Could you post a track please.

Well I can certainly save the track file. What is the preferred way of sharing it?

Just post here as an attachment.

I'll give that a try. Visually the throttle is back all the way, is there another way to check the setting?

 

I've tried it several ways now, throttle unlocked (i can do this by clicking on throttle or by disengaging parking brake), locked from the start (can't move from the begining) and nothing is working.

If you're looking at the throttle in the pit you can see if moves from the idle stop to the off stop.

Just give it a try

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Without the parking brake released, you cannot flick the other switch (throttle cutoff) and therefore the throttle can't go into idle and the engine won't start.

Yeah that was nonsense, apologies :doh:

While it works, it's of course wrong procedure to release the parking brake early. Don't know how or when or why I acquired that bad habit :music_whistling:

I've always had the parking break set. The parking brake locks the throttle and keeps it from going above idle. You can move the throttle between the idle and of detents with the parking brake on. You may not be able to easily see the clock spot, but you can click through the throttle as well. I've mapped the cutoff to a button.

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The Parking Brake Lever prevents the Throttle from being advanced beyond the idle position. I don't see any play between idle and the Parking Brake Lever, which is as it should be.

The only thing I know is not working as per the manual in these regards, is that you cannot advance the Throttle Lever forward from cutoff to idle, without first releasing the Throttle Cutoff Lever, or the Parking Brake Lever. The former should not be necessary; the latter should not be done before starting the engine.

NATOPS FLIGHT MANUAL NAVY MODEL AV--8B/TAV--8B 161573 AND UP AIRCRAFT 15 MARCH 2008, Page 2-15

2.4.1 Throttle

 

The throttle is located on the left console (Figure 2-6). The throttle is mechanically linked to the PLA and the combined manual fuel valve and fuel shutoff cock within the FMU. When in DECS control the PLA sends an electronic signal to the DECUs based on the position of the throttle.When the throttle is fully aft, the high pressure fuel shutoff valve is closed and cuts off fuel supply to the engine. Forward movement to the idle rpm position opens the shutoff valve and a ratchet stop prevents movement back except when a spring loaded throttle cutoff lever, on the front of the throttle, is lifted. Inside the quadrant is a spring loaded full throttle stop. If the throttle is pushed hard against this and compresses it, the jet pipe temperature limiter (JPTL) switch is switched OFF; it must subsequently be switched ON by hand. The full throttle stop can be overridden if necessary by a push force on the throttle of 30 to 35 pounds. An interference catch ensures that the throttle lever cannot be moved past a parking BRAKE LOCK position when the lock is engaged. A throttle damper friction control is aft of the throttle quadrant.

Page 2-61

2.17.6.1 Parking Brake

 

The parking brake handle is located outboard of the throttle (fwd cockpit only).When the throttle is in idle the handle can be moved into the parking detent. The throttle cannot be advanced until the parking brake is released from the detent

 

Actuation of the parking brake applies brake pressure in the system. Ensure the aircraft is properly secured (chained or chocked as required) after shutdown as brake pressure will bleed off within approximately 3 hours to a level that is insufficient to keep the aircraft in place.

The only thing I know is not working as per the manual in these regards, is that you cannot advance the Throttle Lever forward from cutoff to idle, without first releasing the Throttle Cutoff Lever, or the Parking Brake Lever. The former should not be necessary; the latter should not be done before starting the engine.

 

I don't see that.

I don't used checklist like Chucks guide, I try to use the available manual found online (there are several versions AFAIK, 2005, 2008 and 2011). I normally check the throttle as per A1-AV8BB-NFM−000, Sep 2011, para 7.5.1, page 7-13, steps 6 A to F, so not sure if that is why I don't see it. But to start the engine, I simple move my throttle I bit forward and back to idle once 5.0% RPM is reach and RPM rises as expected to idle. I have started the engine without following the NATOP and did not have to move neither the parking brake nor the engine cutoff at all.

Anyway, we still need Harlikwin to post a track see if it was a one time thing, or of we can identify what he is missing.

I think you guys are seeing bugs where they don’t exist- except for maybe a joystick bug. If your throttle is at zero when you enter the cockpit then you have no need to push the fuel cutoff switch because it’s already there. If for some reason (such as a throttle spike) your throttle has moved up to the idle position, then you must press the fuel cutoff switch and lower it to zero again before attempting to start the engine. Once the engine starts turning and you move your throttle into idle it should not be possible to lower it to zero again unless the fuel cutoff switch is pressed. That’s a safety feature to stop pilots from shutting down engines in mid air.

Tl:dr. It’s a hardware throttle issue not a harrier bug

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I don't see that.

 

I don't used checklist like Chucks guide, I try to use the available manual found online (there are several versions AFAIK, 2005, 2008 and 2011). I normally check the throttle as per A1-AV8BB-NFM−000, Sep 2011, para 7.5.1, page 7-13, steps 6 A to F, so not sure if that is why I don't see it. But to start the engine, I simple move my throttle I bit forward and back to idle once 5.0% RPM is reach and RPM rises as expected to idle. I have started the engine without following the NATOP and did not have to move neither the parking brake nor the engine cutoff at all.

 

 

Anyway, we still need Harlikwin to post a track see if it was a one time thing, or of we can identify what he is missing.

Okay, I can see where you are coming from, and yet, it is wrong for the throttle to be locked at cutoff.

I think you guys are seeing bugs where they don’t exist- except for maybe a joystick bug. If your throttle is at zero when you enter the cockpit then you have no need to push the fuel cutoff switch because it’s already there. If for some reason (such as a throttle spike) your throttle has moved up to the idle position, then you must press the fuel cutoff switch and lower it to zero again before attempting to start the engine. Once the engine starts turning and you move your throttle into idle it should not be possible to lower it to zero again unless the fuel cutoff switch is pressed. That’s a safety feature to stop pilots from shutting down engines in mid air.

 

Tl:dr. It’s a hardware throttle issue not a harrier bug

 

 

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On cold-start the throttle is at cutoff, not zero, which is ambiguous.

The Throttle Cutoff Lever blocks you from moving the Throttle to the rear of the ratchet, which the Throttle passes through when being pushed forward from cutoff. You lift the Throttle Cutoff Lever to bypass the ratchet. However RAZBAM has modeled the ratchet into a stop preventing movement in both directions, except when lifting the Throttle Cutoff Lever, or releasing the Parking Brake, which is wrong and contradicts RAZBAM's function of the Throttle Cutoff Lever altogether.

You cannot start the engine with the Throttle at cutoff. Read the 2.4.1 manual entry I posted above.

On cold-start the throttle is at cutoff, not zero, which is ambiguous.

 

 

 

The Throttle Cutoff Lever blocks you from moving the Throttle to the rear of the ratchet, which the Throttle passes through when being pushed forward from cutoff. You lift the Throttle Cutoff Lever to bypass the ratchet. However RAZBAM has modeled the ratchet into a stop preventing movement in both directions, except when lifting the Throttle Cutoff Lever, or releasing the Parking Brake, which is wrong and contradicts RAZBAM's function of the Throttle Cutoff Lever altogether.

 

 

 

You cannot start the engine with the Throttle at cutoff. Read the 2.4.1 manual entry I posted above.

I agree with what you’re saying, but didn’t know that the “parking brake throttle lock” was wrong. However I think a lot of people don’t check that their hardware throttle is all the way back when entering the aircraft which is what I’m getting at. This leads to the throttle being stuck at idle and won’t allow the cranking process to start. Whether this is correct or not I don’t know, but it is the problem with why people often can’t start the harrier (in game). I know nothing except what we’ve been shown about the tea harrier and reading the real manuals doesn’t help someone if it’s not correct to what we have right now.

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So this statement is false.

With the parking brake disengaged the throttle is free to move it's entire range of travel between the idle stop and full thrust.

If the parking brake is engaged while the throttle is at idle, the throttle is not allowed to move forward.

At all times the throttle cuttoff can be lifted allowing the throttle to be moved from. Idle to off.

Go sit in the pit and activate the parking brake with the throttle off. (Like when you load into a cold jet). Push the throttle forward, the throttle will move to the idle position. The cutoff stop will engage and only then is the throttle locked in place. This is what happens 9 times out of 10 when someone says they can't start the Harrier.

If at this point you lift the throttle cutoff lever, and your physical throttle is at 0%, the throttle will move to the off position. Which is where it needs to be to begin spooling.

Go give it a try, because what you described is not how it works. I do this every time I'm starting to make sure everything is in the right position.

However RAZBAM has modeled the ratchet into a stop preventing movement in both directions, except when lifting the Throttle Cutoff Lever, or releasing the Parking Brake, which is wrong and contradicts RAZBAM's function of the Throttle Cutoff Lever altogether.

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To be more clear, you do not NEED to lift the cutoff lever to begin engine start if you are set up correctly.

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Ok, just managed to startup twice.

The issue was the idle position. I left the entire throttle alone until it was time to hit the ENG switch. Hit the switch and look at the throttle and there are 2 different "spots" you can click, the brakes and the throttle cutoff position. As long as I hit the cutoff first it powers right up as it should. It is mostly impossible to see thought. Also weirdly the Win+T shortcut for it doesn't seem to work for me.