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Swiss Air Force Hornets


greenmamba

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Hello,

 

I would like to know something about the use of Swiss Air Force hornets.

 

Are the Swiss hornets only used for Air to Air ? The only reference for use in ground attack is with the gun during the Axalp exercise.

 

Swiss pilots never train to deliver bombs ? Does the Swiss Air Force even have air to ground weapons for its Hornets ?

 

The Sniper TGP is only use for Air to Air identification ?

 

I am kinda surprised they don’t use smart bombs linge LGBS , IAM’s or Mavericks.

 

 

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The Swiss Air Force does not do A-G anymore (besides those gunruns) since the retirement of the Hawker Hunter in 1994. I don't really know what the reasons for this are. :dunno:

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Well, with Switzerland being a neutral country and therefore very strictly not being involved in any kind of "extraterritorial operations", it is only somewhat consequent that they don't do A/G. If the balloon will ever go up and Switzerland will face a ground threat at their borders then that'll be an issue they won't solve anyway with a handful of Hornets and Tigers...

 

Air policing is a different story - even though they even do that only during "office hours". During the nights or weekends arrangements are in place with the neighboring states and their Air Forces to cover Switzerland then. I heard this is going to change in the future but I'm not 100% sure.

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Yes thatˋs true. The Swiss AF actually donˋt do A/G. As the F/A-18C/Ds are in service since 1996, the Swiss AF is going to start a reneval process to replace the current hornet fleet. However, iirc the hornets remain in service till around 2030.

 

I read in a magazin with the new fighter it is planned to do A/G, but there were no further details regarding which kind of weapons the Swiss AF planned to use.

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Yes thatˋs true. The Swiss AF actually donˋt do A/G. As the F/A-18C/Ds are in service since 1996, the Swiss AF is going to start a reneval process to replace the current hornet fleet. However, iirc the hornets remain in service till around 2030.

 

I read in a magazin with the new fighter it is planned to do A/G, but there were no further details regarding which kind of weapons the Swiss AF planned to use.

Aren't the new fighters (I bet it will be the Gripen) supposed to replace the F-5? :huh:

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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Air policing is a different story - even though they even do that only during "office hours". During the nights or weekends arrangements are in place with the neighboring states and their Air Forces to cover Switzerland then. I heard this is going to change in the future but I'm not 100% sure.

 

Yes thatˋs true. Starting on January 2019, the Swiss AF extends air policing on 365 days a year from 6am till 10pm and at a later point two hornets are ready for QRA 24h/365.

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Aren't the new fighters (I bet it will be the Gripen) supposed to replace the F-5? :huh:

 

That was planned, yes QuiGon. But there was a plebiscite in 2014 to replace the F-5E/F tigers. The Swiss AF planned to buy the Gripen E. However, the voting volks denied such a relacement. Now, there will be another plebiscite next year to replace the hornets as well as the tigers.

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That was planned, yes QuiGon. But there was a plebiscite in 2014 to replace the F-5E/F tigers. The Swiss AF planned to buy the Gripen E. However, the voting volks denied such a relacement. Now, there will be another plebiscite next year to replace the hornets as well as the tigers.

Yeah, I was following the vote in the news. It was a pretty tight result.

I wasn't aware,that now both fighters are supposed to get replaced. That#s interesting. I still think the Gripen will make it.

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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Yeah, I was following the vote in the news. It was a pretty tight result.

I wasn't aware,that now both fighters are supposed to get replaced. That#s interesting. I still think the Gripen will make it.

 

I really hope there will be a much much better result next year.

 

The new jets under consideration are:

 

-> EF 2000

-> Rafale

-> Saab Gripen E

-> F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

-> F-35A Joint Strike Fighter

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I really hope there will be a much much better result next year.

 

The new jets under consideration are:

 

-> EF 2000

-> Rafale

-> Saab Gripen E

-> F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

-> F-35A Joint Strike Fighter

 

My money is on the Super Hornet (commonality with legacy hornet, easier to maintain and train on). But I wouldn't be surprised by many of the other choices either, although the F-35 really seems like overkill (and overbill!) for their requirements.

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I don´t really understand why they don´t at least perform CAS missions ?

 

I'm going to take a guess on this one but given the costs of operating a Hornet versus a F-5, it's probably more cost effective to use the F-5 for CAS. Also less risk given the purchase cost of a Hornet versus the F-5.

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Does anyone know why they went with hornet initially? And not say the F-16? I’m asking cause I don’t know.

 

As for new jets I’d guess super bug as well, for the above reasons and price point, I think it’s the best 4+ gen bang for your buck out of those choices. Anything more expensive and you might as well get the F-35 and future proof your force. IMO

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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Does anyone know why they went with hornet initially? And not say the F-16? I’m asking cause I don’t know.

 

As for new jets I’d guess super bug as well, for the above reasons and price point, I think it’s the best 4+ gen bang for your buck out of those choices. Anything more expensive and you might as well get the F-35 and future proof your force. IMO

 

Again, another guess on my part, but perhaps it was the dual engines. Single engine failure means you can bring it home versus the F-16 which is now written off. Other things come into it as well such as total cost over the expected life, technology transfers, some of the construction / assembly to take place in Switzerland etc. My memory is shaky but I believe this is why Australia chose the F-18 over the F-16, despite the F-16 having a lower sticker price per jet.

 

Regardless of what they choose, I'm pretty confident the Swiss will drive a pretty hard bargain.

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That was planned, yes QuiGon. But there was a plebiscite in 2014 to replace the F-5E/F tigers. The Swiss AF planned to buy the Gripen E. However, the voting volks denied such a relacement. Now, there will be another plebiscite next year to replace the hornets as well as the tigers.

 

Interesting to read about the process of deciding what aircraft to buy...do you mean it’s put out for a vote by the public?

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Interesting to read about the process of deciding what aircraft to buy...do you mean it’s put out for a vote by the public?

 

The plebiscite was not about „what“ aircraft type, that selection was up to and done by the MoD. The public was asked to approve or deny the intended purchase of Gripen E jets. They denied it very closely.

 

Plebiscites are very common and regular in Switzerland, a very interesting political system. Has its caveats as well, of course. But I stop here since we‘re not supposed to discuss politics here (...and that is good!).


Edited by Hog_No32
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Please correct me if I am’wrong. But the AXALP exercice is to simulate an invasion into Switzerland and the fighters are practicing strafing on ground targets to protect the population , right ?

 

Wouldn’t it be better with today’s technology to employ LGB’s, IAM’s or even dumb bombs ? Or two they count on the fact that to get to Switzerland by ground you need to cross other countries and they have the means to stop it ?

 

I just would like to understand the choice of not performing the A/G mission with a lulitorle fighter.

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I'm Swiss and in the Swiss Army and I like to clarify some points.

 

1. Why the Swiss don't do CAS with the Hornet: As someone already explained, in a modern conflict in Switzerland CAS is tactically irrelevant, because Switzerland is so small. Nevertheless in 2012 the Swiss Air Force wanted to integrate the Paveway 2 Bombs into the Hornets, so the Air Force could precision Strike some high value targets. But the Security Committee of the Parliament decided that such a capabilitiy is not needed.

 

2. Why the Hornet was chosen over the Viper: Both types were seen as very capable, but the hornet fitted the Swiss Idea of an alpine Fighter better. Because as a Carrier Aircraft the Hornet had a stronger landing gear and with its two engines more thrust. So it would be more handy to use on alpine Air Bases, which are quite difficult to land on. On top, Boeing was ready to integrate the AIM-120 into Swiss Hornets, while Lockheed just wanted to sell Sparrows. In the end the evaluation committee stated that a fleet of Hornets would cost 15% more than a Viper fleet, but Hornets would be 30% more effective to operate.

 

3. Which fighter will be choosen: First, Eurofighter or Rafale have no chance, too expensive or too old. Next the Super Hornet would be quite capable as it is very similar to the legacy Hornet, but it is probably too big for the Swiss underground caverns. Furthermore the Swiss Air Force would have to rely again on the US (Boeing has the ability to deactivate any Hornet at any time). So I believe that the Gripen E will be selected again, as it is no longer just a project (like in 2014) but an actual flying aircraft, it is even cheaper to operate than expected in 2014 and it's avionics suit is top notch and as I can estimate superior to Super Hornet Block 2. Lastly, the Gripen E can use, like the Super Hornet, the AIM-9X and AIM-120C-7 which are currently in use with the Swiss Air Force, but also all other European Missiles like Meteor or Iris-T. And the last one, the F-35 will be just to expensive.

 

4. The "Office Times" of the Swiss Air Force: It is a true story that some years ago the Air Force was just available from 08:00 - 11:30 and from 13:00 - 17:00. But they are changing the system now. Today the AF is available from 07:00 to 20:00, next year from 06:00 to 23:00 and from 2020 on there will always be two fighters mission ready.

 

5. How the Swiss public can decide which Fighter. So first to say, the Ministry of Defense selects which aircraft to buy and the Federal Council decides how to buy them. Then the Parliament revises this decision how to buy them and afterwards votes for or against the purchase. If the public is not happy with the decision (And usually there is always someone disagreeing) they can make a "Referendum" and then in the last instance the whole public can vote for the purchase.

So for example in 2013 the MoD decided they want to buy 22 Gripen E for 3.3 Billions CHF. The Federal Council decided to introduce a new law to create a Fond to purchase them. After some revisions the parliament accepted the law. But the left parties felt unhappy and initated a "Referendum" and in 2014 the public decided against the law, because the Gripen E was at this time just a project. So the MoD had no money to buy the Gripen.

Today the Federal Council decided that the new Aircraft and the new ground Air Defense System (they need replacement too) will be put into one package, and the parliament, maybe later the public, can just vote for or against a "new Air Force". If accepted the MoD receives 8-9 Billions CHF to buy those new Jets and SAMs and is free to choose which types and how many. With this way the MoD and Federal Council want to prevent that the public votes no, because they are just unhapppy with the typen chosen.

 

I hope I was able to clarify some points and give some background information.

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