BFM Defensive Tactics Discussion

Ran into a situation in the Cage the bear campaign where I was RTB and had two Mig 23s come up on my 6. My wingman crashed during the mission so I was alone at this point. At that point I wasn't aware of the Mig 23's capabilities and assumed the tomcat was much faster so I just pushed the throttle to maximum and tried to burn out of there. The two migs continued to close distance (thanks to Jester actually calling it out for me).

So here's my situation: I'm at about 700-800 knots, roughly angels 5. 2 SP and 2 SW. 2 bandits closing on my 6. What's the play?

Here's what I did, which failed: I dropped throttle to idle and turned right as hard as I could while retaining stability, to bleed airspeed and attempt a neutral merge. I spotted the migs coming around and puling on my 6. I nosed down to try and scrape them off on a nearby hill as I maneuvered around it. One did crash. Second one still danger close. I rolled to turn into the bandit, then I went back to afterburner try and then go vertical with the intent on using my climb rate to reduce his energy significantly and then I would roll out and be able to get on his 6. This didn't work. He maintained the climb and his angle and put guns into my engines. I had to eject and my 40 minute mission was a fail.

I didn't understand two important things: 1)The Mig 23 has similar speed capabilities to the tomcat. If I knew this I would have turned into them sooner and had a neutral merge. 2) I attempted a vertical maneuver with a Mig 23 on my 6 not realizing that the Mig 23 has a similar climb rate.

What else is wrong with this scenario? What would you do? Help me improve :D

Also, yes I understand that AI has a cheating FM.

Cheating FM doesn't matter - climbing with a bandit on your six is like rolling out in from of him.

For the rest there are BFM instruction manuals like CNATRAs P826.

Start at 5:25. I didn't climb while his nose was on my tail. I changed the angle first by pulling into him, then went into a climb. This works on aircraft that don't have the same climb rate. My mistake, to my mind, is not understanding that the Mig 23 can climb just as well as the F-14.

Yeah against a Mig-23 I would keep the fight in the horizontal. Rather than pull up into the vertical, I would just keep pulling into him. If you do this with sufficient separation you can get to the merge from a neutral position, otherwise he (eventually) won't be able to follow you because the Tomcat turns way better.

Ah cool. Thanks!

You should have coughed up my compressor if you are super Sonic since you went to idle.

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There are assumptions and conditions in that video that you're expected to know already in order to interpret correctly.

Your mistake is not having gone to read up on and practice BFM instruction yet ;)

CNATRA P-826 is your friend.

 

Start at 5:25. I didn't climb while his nose was on my tail. I changed the angle first by pulling into him, then went into a climb. This works on aircraft that don't have the same climb rate. My mistake, to my mind, is not understanding that the Mig 23 can climb just as well as the F-14.

There are assumptions and conditions in that video that you're expected to know already in order to interpret correctly.

 

Your mistake is not having gone to read up on and practice BFM instruction yet ;)

 

 

CNATRA P-826 is your friend.

Ah, found it. Thanks. I'll dive into it and see what I can learn.

You should have coughed up my compressor if you are super Sonic since you went to idle.

 

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I don't quite understand. Are you saying the FM is wrong and that the plane should have died from me dropping throttle quickly?

I didn't understand two important things: 1)The Mig 23 has similar speed capabilities to the tomcat. If I knew this I would have turned into them sooner and had a neutral merge. 2) I attempted a vertical maneuver with a Mig 23 on my 6 not realizing that the Mig 23 has a similar climb rate.

That said and assuming you endorse GGTharos's good advice, the question is now : what can your aircraft do better than the MiG-23? The answer is : turning. And the higher the AoA, the worse the MiG behaves. This assuming that you both have energy. Which is, IMHO, where you did bad. Your original post is all about leaking out and wasting energy: idle, high G turn ant then climb. In such conditions, even a human F-5 owns you.

Try this little training mission: you're face to face with a Flogger set to 'excellent', both angels 10, both having guns only. Keep him a bit on your right or left side until you merge, so he doesn't snipe you with his gun. Switch roll SAS off. Merge at Mach 0.9 and after crossing, turn hard to him. Just avoid blackout, which means you'll have to play between mil power and PC. Just do what you can to keep the bandit as long as possible just above your front canopy frame. You'll see how the MiG-23 leaks out its energy while turning, and how your F-14 doesn't. At a moment, you'll just need to put him in your HUD and shoot him down to avoid boredom :)

Caucasus-AA-test-Flogger.zip

That said and assuming you endorse GGTharos's good advice, the question is now : what can your aircraft do better than the MiG-23? The answer is : turning. And the higher the AoA, the worse the MiG behaves. This assuming that you both have energy. Which is, IMHO, where you did bad. Your original post is all about leaking out and wasting energy: idle, high G turn ant then climb. In such conditions, even a human F-5 owns you.

 

Try this little training mission: you're face to face with a Flogger set to 'excellent', both angels 10, both having guns only. Keep him a bit on your right or left side until you merge, so he doesn't snipe you with his gun. Switch roll SAS off. Merge at Mach 0.9 and after crossing, turn hard to him. Just avoid blackout, which means you'll have to play between mil power and PC. Just do what you can to keep the bandit as long as possible just above your front canopy frame. You'll see how the MiG-23 leaks out its energy while turning, and how your F-14 doesn't. At a moment, you'll just need to put him in your HUD and shoot him down to avoid boredom :)

Interesting. I'll try this in a bit. I already have several 1v1 gun duel missions I've set, starting about 2nm apart, face to face, excellent rating, and about angels 6. I feel a bit sloppy at it but I can regularly shoot down mig21, F-5, M-2000C, and F/A-18C. I'll add one with the flogger and try it out.

I leave Roll SAS on, however. And I'm not using flaps because I don't think it's reasonable to practice something that is destructive to the aircraft. The tomcat deploys maneuver flaps automatically, deploying landing flaps and having them damaged in every fight seems like a bad habit to practice.

Edit: I out-turned him immediately after the merge and was on his 6 after the second merge. My understanding of some of the terminology is not great yet, I assume this was a one-circle. I turned right on the initial merge, and he turned turned left/up. We merged again with the angles in my favor so I turned left and came into his 6 and shot him down easily. The 21's AI is better at this sort of thing. So really I should have just kept turning horizontally in the situation in the OP.

The tomcat deploys maneuver flaps automatically, deploying landing flaps and having them damaged in every fight seems like a bad habit to practice.

You can take advantage of the maneuver flaps by using them manually and that's why there's a HOTAS command wheel for this on the real plane. But of course, the use of the landing flaps for maneuvering is nonsense.

You can take advantage of the maneuver flaps by using them manually and that's why there's a HOTAS command wheel for this on the real plane. But of course, the use of the landing flaps for maneuvering is nonsense.

Yeah yeah sorry, I do understand that the maneuever flaps can be used manually, though I personally don't know when to use them yet as they seem to deploy as needed.

They do deploy automatically depending on Mach, wing sweep and AoA (I can't remember the exact conditions), but you also have the choice to do so manually.

Always do turn roll SAS off during air to air combat however. Keeping it on makes for a much more messy ride at high AoA, as the system is not designed to work in that regime.

Well I'll take your advice on the SAS roll and try to remember to disengage it. Thanks.

helpfully the F-14's paddle switch will turn off your roll sas for you.

The paddle switch will disengage roll and pitch SAS I believe.

The paddle switch will disengage roll and pitch SAS I believe.

helpfully the F-14's paddle switch will turn off your roll sas for you.

Interesting, i didn't know this one! :thumbup:

How does it work, is it a toggle or press and hold?

They do deploy automatically depending on Mach, wing sweep and AoA (I can't remember the exact conditions), but you also have the choice to do so manually.

Have you used them in this way? What is your general impression? I tend to live them on AUTO and have only dropped the big ones manually when VERY slow over the top.

It's a one-way toggle. The paddle disengages autopilot (if enabled) and physically flips the pitch and roll SAS switches. You have to flip those two switches up again to un-toggle, and autopilot won't work until you do.

It's a one-way toggle. The paddle disengages autopilot (if enabled) and physically flips the pitch and roll SAS switches. You have to flip those two switches up again to un-toggle, and autopilot won't work until you do.

Wow, glad I came across this thread. Did not know this. Will definitely check that out now. Great!:thumbup:

Is that the NWS/autopilot disengage switch you're talking about?

Sorta back on topic. I created a defensive bfm practice mission where two mig23s are on my 6 at about 2nm out. I have missiles and they have guns. But I suck at mission editing and they both seem to want to land more than they want to shoot at me lol. What commands am I missing for them in the editor? I have them set to intercept me...

Have you used them in this way? What is your general impression? I tend to live them on AUTO and have only dropped the big ones manually when VERY slow over the top.

Same, I leave them in auto as well.

Is that the NWS/autopilot disengage switch you're talking about?

That's the one!

I could think of the name for my earlier post :doh:

When you hit that button in the air it will do the following:

1) Disengage any Autopilot mode active

2) Disengage the the Roll and Pitch SAS

The SAS switches will physically move to the off position as they are held in the on position by a solenoid I believe.

That's the one!

 

I could think of the name for my earlier post :doh:

 

When you hit that button in the air it will do the following:

 

1) Disengage any Autopilot mode active

 

2) Disengage the the Roll and Pitch SAS

 

The SAS switches will physically move to the off position as they are held in the on position by a solenoid I believe.

*facepalm* And I have it bound to one of my primary buttons on top of my stick already. I'll be sure to be disengaging sas roll now! lol thanks :D