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Why is it So hard to land the MI 8


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I love flying all the helo's including the MI 8 , I have very little difficulty landing the KA 50, the Huey or the Gazelle but when it comes to the 8 I windup chasing the VSI and it gets into VRS so easy and drops like a rock, if I try to come in and hover then land, a rolling landing is easy,but there are times when thats not possible. I am using a warthog hotas, is there special curves or a secret incantation or maybe I need one stiff drink, whats the secret?

Thanks I hate sucking at landing :crash:

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Actually it is not very different from uh-1 while landing.

But as you said, it gets to vrs much more easly. So don't let your heli to descent too fast. add power constantly. And try to get hover state as low as possible. It can get caught by vrs even about 40 meters. And its doppler hover indicator is very helpful

 

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whats the secret?

 

There is no secret, you just have to watch your vertical speed and add collective as you slow down. That literally is all there is to it.

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Maintain a 2-3m/s descent, watch out for the vibration (that's not VRS, it's just the transition from flight to hover) and start adding collective when it starts. Keep the descent above -3m/s when in the hover region. Also, don't yank on the collective, you'll only shoot upwards and possibly lower rotor RPM to the point where the generators disengage for a short while.

 

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Yes I agree with all the advice, I will have to put in a dedicated practice effort to master the transition to hover and landing I guess. I know one thing is with my warthog throttle it is difficult to move the collective in small increments, I watch the utube videos and see folks keeping the vsi at the 3 m/s all the way down, my control will not let me do that in its current configuration. I make a tiny movement and it translates to a to large movement in game. Thanks for the response, I'll get it eventually.

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PC=Win 10 HP 64 bit, Gigabyte Z390, Intel I5-9600k, 32 gig ram, Nvidia 2060 Super 8gig video. TM HOTAS WARTHOG with Saitek Pedals

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One thing I found that made it easier was to descend to low altitude whilst maintaining forward speed. That means you don’t have a large height through which you have the chance to be too gung ho on your VSI. Does mean that you’ll need to have better skills in braking whilst maintaining the same altitude.

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I know one thing is with my warthog throttle it is difficult to move the collective in small increments...

If feasible for you, attach a stick with the length of roughly 40cm to your warthog (tape, super glue, welding or what not), reverse the axis in settings and put it on a stool on your left side as a real collective. Will do miracles. You won't be able to use any buttons though...

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As much as you can, stop your bird as low as possible. Idealy, you stop only on touchdown

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Like most of the modules in this sim, I suppose that it is just a matter of how much time and effort you put into one before you become adept/comfortable with it in all regimes of flight. Most of my squad mates prefer the Huey over the Mi-8 but for me, the Hip is the most realistically recreated helicopter in DCS world and I really enjoy the challenge of flying it. I make my approaches and landings with one eye on the airspeed and the other on the vertical speed. Try not to let your vertical speed ever dip below 300 MPS with your airspeed less that 100KPH. If it does, raising the collective is a sure fire way to get into settling with power/vortex ring state. Just lower the nose and pick up some speed and go around! Work on making your approaches shallower than you think they should be. Start slowing down earlier than you think you should.

 

 

One exercise that I have found useful, is to get out on a runway at about a 100 foot hover and transition to forward flight without climbing, and accelerate to about 150KPH and then begin a deceleration back to a hover, holding that same 100 feet throughout the maneuver. It is a great coordination exercise that teaches you what to do with each one of the controls. Do this a couple of times and then go fly around for a little bit and then come back to the runway and try it again. I think you will find this a very good training exercise - in any of the helicopters available in DCS. I use it while training pilots in the real world and it is very effective.

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Thanks for the Suggestions, I was on The Inferno server last night and what a blast, I did mange to land the MI 8 a few times and unload the troops in confined spaces down town and there was a few times I came down a bit hard, I'm just going to keep practicing, one area you guys hit on the nose, I'm impatient to get on the ground and when I am slowing down, I tend to start to close to the zone and too late which causes a elevator effect in altitude, it's just going to take practice and developing good habits.

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Yes I agree with all the advice, I will have to put in a dedicated practice effort to master the transition to hover and landing I guess. I know one thing is with my warthog throttle it is difficult to move the collective in small increments, I watch the utube videos and see folks keeping the vsi at the 3 m/s all the way down, my control will not let me do that in its current configuration. I make a tiny movement and it translates to a to large movement in game. Thanks for the response, I'll get it eventually.

 

Until you get some feel for the Mi8 I'd keep Sink rate At 2 to 3 Mtr/sec above 100km/hr and 1 to 2mtr/sec below 100km/h.

 

This bird can quickly fall and at slower speeds you just won't have enough power to slow sink rates as the passes 5mtr/sec close to the ground.

 

That's about it keep sink rate in check and it's a walk in the park. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

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I've started doing rolling landings when the MI-8 is fully loaded. It's very good at taxiing on Grass.

When I'm getting shot at and I can't really take too much time landing, that's when the rolling landings have worked well.

But yeah can't count how many times I've crashed because I didn't pay attention to the drop rate.

When it happens I jolt it left or forward to try and get out.

When the bird is heavy it's not forgiving with regards to VRS. I gotta say it really can dance when it isn't too heavy.

So maybe try practicing with it as light as possible.

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I've started doing rolling landings when the MI-8 is fully loaded. It's very good at taxiing on Grass.

When I'm getting shot at and I can't really take too much time landing, that's when the rolling landings have worked well.

But yeah can't count how many times I've crashed because I didn't pay attention to the drop rate.

When it happens I jolt it left or forward to try and get out.

When the bird is heavy it's not forgiving with regards to VRS. I gotta say it really can dance when it isn't too heavy.

So maybe try practicing with it as light as possible.

 

VRS here is some reading and videos, although letting sink rate exceed available power is not really VRS the result is the same.

 

Here

 

And here

 

Yes the Mi-8 is surprisingly spritely once you get the feel for her. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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The point at which it clicked for me was discovering how much more power I had to pull in as it translated to hover from ETL.

 

The difference in the amount of power required to hover vs. ETL flight is quite a lot.

 

So as you are slowing down, right after the shudder you should be pulling a pretty decent amount of power in. Smoothly, but also quickly.

 

Once you can transition out of ETL to hover smoothly, landing the Mi-8 will become a joke. That's where you need to put the focus - on managing power through that transition.

 

Just my opinion, based on what helped me get the hang of it.

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As mentioned above, look at your rate of sink by monitoring your variometer. Choose a glide slope with a low drop rate and keep your parameters stabilized, the thing will settle on its own, you'll just have to adjust the collective to transit to stationary. And forget the VRS, a depression due to a large wing load is more common with pilots who do not respect the parameters. Depending on the weight you must choose a different attitude, so different speed and rate of sink.


Edited by cromhunt
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The turbine can have a lot of lag when adding power. The mistake I used to make was during the descent I would put the collective very low (<1° on the pilot collectiv angle indicator) to have the fastest descent.

 

But by doing that the engine output zero power, and when you transition from forward flights to hover, suddenly you need more power, bit the engine can't spool up fast enough.

 

I would advice keeping the collective higher than 2 when your speed is lower than 100km/h. After you get used to it you can hear when the engine is too low.

 

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The point at which it clicked for me was discovering how much more power I had to pull in as it translated to hover from ETL.

 

The difference in the amount of power required to hover vs. ETL flight is quite a lot.

 

So as you are slowing down, right after the shudder you should be pulling a pretty decent amount of power in. Smoothly, but also quickly.

 

Once you can transition out of ETL to hover smoothly, landing the Mi-8 will become a joke. That's where you need to put the focus - on managing power through that transition.

 

Just my opinion, based on what helped me get the hang of it.

 

 

 

This is the gotcha trap when coming in hard in the Mi8 (Huey as well) Whilst as you reduce relative speed ETL is gradually reducing you do need some additional power to maintain height. You actually gradually add power as speed is reducing just to maintain desired height.

 

However you are right that last bit of speed reduction as ETL drops right off requires a lot of attention to power applied. If this is not managed the sink rate tends to quickly get away on you and you find yourself at low relative speed and sinking past 5 meters/second and quickly running out of power and height.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Train yourself to autorotations with engine cut, and you will find that you do not use the commands as it should.

An helicopter as long as it has sufficient rotor RPM keeps an effective sustenance. Of course it does not allow you to climb up.

However when approaching the ground you can use this energy to slow down your sink rate by making a more or less accentuated progressive flare, converting speed into lift.

Only after that you can use the collective to consume the RPM to cushion the landing.

Respect the order in which the controls are activated while approaching the ground.

If you first pull on the collective you consume RPM and you lose lift, and your collective will be less effective after.

If you make your flare too high you will not have enough speed for the lift and your sink rate will increase.

So always first the progressive flare, converting speed into lift, and only after the application of the collective.

Of course a correct altitude around 100 meters is necessary to succeed the maneuver while approaching the ground

Now you can do it with the engine running, but the differences will be less noticeable.

Who can do the more can do the least


Edited by cromhunt
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lets say for discussion that youre at 35 meters in a hover and want to descend vertically. You move collective as shown over time and you periodically increase power to maintain a reducing VSI over time. The manner of moving collective is important and really takes practice. You need to observe the position outside, your ground references, and your vertical speed being reducing over time. Once youre in ground effect, start lowering collective more and relax compensation. 5 meters and lower it down even more from previous position. 3 meters even more. then lower it all the way.

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okay Ill ask the obvious question, why?

 

I mean I get regulating VSI or sink rate when descending which is what I do, but it's generally smoother regulation of collective and yes you can feel IGE build as you descend.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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okay Ill ask the obvious question, why?

 

I mean I get regulating VSI or sink rate when descending which is what I do, but it's generally smoother regulation of collective and yes you can feel IGE build as you descend.

 

why what?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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why what?

 

Well the movement of collective VS height in the chart. Why so much?

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Well the movement of collective VS height in the chart. Why so much?

 

sorry for taking long to answer. the chart is not accurate. I used it to convey that as you reduce your collective, you taper the reduction, not slice it. Meaning:

 

If in hover your % of collective is 100%, you drop down to 90% then immediately go back to 95%. This should "arrest" your descent or sink rate. But I am sure you already knew this. Like in hornet.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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