fastfreddie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 The caption say 'late war Bf109G'. The MK103 was only trialed on the Fw190. It was a failure. Alot of weapon systems were failures ... 21cm air mortars that were used by just a few units on FW190 A-4 through A-8s were another. Most FW190 units that used 30mms had them built into the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 No Beule blisters on the connecting piece, but expading, caps on wing. What options are there? + a big "D" letter on the engine. (DB 605D - used in G-10 and K-4) http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Alot of weapon systems were failures ... 21cm air mortars that were used by just a few units on FW190 A-4 through A-8s were another. Most FW190 units that used 30mms had them built into the wings. That is correct that the 30mm cannons were built into the wing (/R2 and /R8 ). They were MK108s NOT MK103 which were mounted below the wing in a gondola. The twin MG151/20s gondolas (/R1) were used by even less units than the /R6 equipped units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) Apart from the D on the engine block, the oil filler was higher up on the forward cowling for D powered 109s (Mermet 109 G/K engines and fittings): [/url] According to the Flugzeug Profile 44 on the 109G/K, the Rüstsatz designation for the K-4 was K-4/R4, although other sources state it was still /R6; Edited December 9, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) Interesting. "Ende des Monats [Februar 1945] wurde das wieder flugkläre Musterflugzeug, nachdem es ein EZ 42 Reflexvisier erhalten hatte, an 1. Fliegerdivision - vermutlich zur Einsatzeinprobung beim ein Jagdverband - abgegeben." K-6 general layout - either MK 108 in the wings with 40 rpg, or MG 151 w. 100 rpg. Edited December 9, 2014 by Kurfürst http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying-Kane Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Ok guys, you convinced me. :) I got it from a book, where the author states especially that. But how did they manage to use the wing cannons, when there were the oxygen tanks (right wing)? 1 AMD Ryzen 7 5800X | 32GB DDR4 RAM | NVidia RTX4080 | MSI B550 TOMAHAWK | Creative X-Fi Titanium | Win 10 Pro 64bit | Track IR4 Pro | Thrustmaster Warthog | Saitek Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maulkin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Ok guys, you convinced me. :) I got it from a book, where the author states especially that. But how did they manage to use the wing cannons, when there were the oxygen tanks (right wing)? What book/author is that from? --Maulkin Windows 10 64-bit - AMD Ryzen 9 5900X @ 3.7 GHz - 32 GB DDR4 3600MHz RAM - EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080 - Asus Crosshair VIII Hero motherboard - Samsung EVO Pro 1 TB SSD - TrackIR 4 Pro - Thrustmaster Warthog - Saitek rudder pedals - Lilliput UM-80/C with TM Cougars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) I believe you are looking at the wrong wing section. The oxygen bottles were between ribs 10 and 12, near the wingtip, you can see the oxygen filler caps just under the Balkenkreuz insignia - the gondolas were hanged from the mid wing section (lower panels were detachable with screws, instead of riveted), just next to the main wheel. The gondola ammo was stored just above the gondola, in the wing. Edited December 9, 2014 by Kurfürst clarify O2 bottles/gondola position http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying-Kane Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 What book/author is that from? Messerschmitt Bf109 Einsatzmaschinen - Das Nachschlagewerk (Harald Helmut Vogt) AMD Ryzen 7 5800X | 32GB DDR4 RAM | NVidia RTX4080 | MSI B550 TOMAHAWK | Creative X-Fi Titanium | Win 10 Pro 64bit | Track IR4 Pro | Thrustmaster Warthog | Saitek Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted December 9, 2014 Author ED Team Share Posted December 9, 2014 Why would anyone want to hang gun pods under the wing of a 109? They sure didn't help the performance of the a/c at all. One of the excuses hears when comapring a/c is that the 109 didn't perform as well as it should of because of the gun pods. I would imagine it would be mostly ground attack wouldnt it? Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastfreddie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I would imagine it would be mostly ground attack wouldnt it? I'm not 100% sure how much if any ground attack combat the BF109 saw but the FW190 F versions were replacing Stuka units and were becoming the main ground attack aircraft for the Germans. BF109's were used mostly for fighter vs fighter combat which is why German pilots hated or didn't want the gun pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted December 9, 2014 Author ED Team Share Posted December 9, 2014 I'm not 100% sure how much if any ground attack combat the BF109 saw but the FW190 F versions were replacing Stuka units and were becoming the main ground attack aircraft for the Germans. BF109's were used mostly for fighter vs fighter combat which is why German pilots hated or didn't want the gun pods. Well dammit we dont have a Stuka yet... so give me some ground attacking 109s till then ;) I know what 109s were supposed to be used for, and what they were used for, but I am sure someone thought it might be nice to have them to shoot up some tanks as well... that said, with Allied air power, a 109 dragging a couple pods probably wasnt a fun place to be... but in DCS, it might make for some fun ground attack missions. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I would imagine it would be mostly ground attack wouldnt it? Those additional guns were for anti-bomber missions, especially 30mm MK108, but MG151/20 are also good at fighting against fighters. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilWillis Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Gun pods would be a good option, but of course we'd definitely need the B-17 to go with that package. Oh and yeah, I'm with Sithspawn, we need the Stuka too - obviously, with the option for the 37mm pods so we can go chew up some T34s - which would have to be included in that package, along with the KV1, KV2, JS2, JS3, SU100, SU120.... Well, OK, I can wish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well dammit we dont have a Stuka yet... so give me some ground attacking 109s till then ;) I know what 109s were supposed to be used for, and what they were used for, but I am sure someone thought it might be nice to have them to shoot up some tanks as well... that said, with Allied air power, a 109 dragging a couple pods probably wasnt a fun place to be... but in DCS, it might make for some fun ground attack missions. But 109 never had Gun pods that would be good against armour. They don't have good enough penetration to even scrach armour. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastfreddie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well dammit we dont have a Stuka yet... so give me some ground attacking 109s till then ;) I know what 109s were supposed to be used for, and what they were used for, but I am sure someone thought it might be nice to have them to shoot up some tanks as well... that said, with Allied air power, a 109 dragging a couple pods probably wasnt a fun place to be... but in DCS, it might make for some fun ground attack missions. I know that the FW190 units that did ground attack missions didn't have alot of success with the 30mm against armor but this was almost always on the eastern front. How 30mm cannons would fare against Shermans in DCS ... who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy229 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Since we are supposed to have Normandy, a major player in the US army there was the hellcat. Pretty much any of the guns that the German planes are sporting should have an effect on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Since we are supposed to have Normandy, a major player in the US army there was the hellcat. Pretty much any of the guns that the German planes are sporting should have an effect on those. Then there were the M2 & M3 halftracks. Anything from .50 cal up could knock those out. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I know that the FW190 units that did ground attack missions didn't have alot of success with the 30mm against armor but this was almost always on the eastern front. How 30mm cannons would fare against Shermans in DCS ... who knows. Fw190 units that did ground attack were the Fw190Fs. No 30mm cannons but retained 2 of their 20mm MG151/20s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper1606688436 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Günther Rall claimed the firing link chain in the wings would snap under high G jamming the entire system so he chose never to fit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodoss Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 From the spare sparts list for the Bf 109 K-4.:book: removable hatches GM-1 bottles Oxygen bottles Gun pod left wing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Günther Rall claimed the firing link chain in the wings would snap under high G jamming the entire system so he chose never to fit them. Similar for the MK108 in the Bf109. The heavy belt would not feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted December 11, 2014 Author ED Team Share Posted December 11, 2014 So general consensus is they could carry 20mm MG151 or 30mm MK.108 gunpods? Correct? Just not ideal with performance trade offs. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 (edited) There is no doubt that the ability was there - the K-4 manual lists the MG 151/20 gondolas specifically as Rüstsatz IV and there are numerous other references elsewhere, for example in the electronic switchboard. The gondolas weren't used much in practice because of tactical considerations, not because of technical... There was a performance hit, but these MW boosted planes were still potent with the gondolas, see http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109G14_PBLeistungen/Leistungen_g14u4_am-asm.html which shows figures for the G-14/ASM which is only a bit weaker in engine profile and output. This table from another report shows the associated weight and drag penalty. http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109G_Leistungzusammenstellung/Leistungzusammenstellung109G.html#dragitems_table Edited December 11, 2014 by Kurfürst http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted December 11, 2014 Author ED Team Share Posted December 11, 2014 Ok guys, thanks for all the info, if you come across anything else post it here, but this and an option for the "nose cannon" have been feature requested. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts