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DCS Mustang Developer Notes


EvilBivol-1

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The problem is more that there has to be a system implemented to identify the location of the detents for a given input device.

May I shamelessly point out that Falcon 4.0 developers, yet again, solved it years ago :) I wonder if this particular implementation ever occured to them as a problem ;)

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May I shamelessly point out that Falcon 4.0 developers, yet again, solved it years ago :) I wonder if this particular implementation ever occured to them as a problem ;)

 

May I point out that I'm not saying it's "unsolvable". I'm saying time would have to be spent doing it. This time has to make itself worth it, in dollars. ;)

 

How did Falcon 4.0 do, in dollars? ;)

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May I point out that I'm not saying it's "unsolvable". I'm saying time would have to be spent doing it. This time has to make itself worth it, in dollars. ;)

 

How did Falcon 4.0 do, in dollars? ;)

Please take a look at the actual menu in F 4.0. It's rather silly to depict the feature as a large programming/time investment ;)

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Because menu graphics is a big deal in this circumstance... :)

 

Seriosuly Bucic, there's more to this kind of feature than coding a bit of UI. You know that.

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I don't get it. Can someone explain it for a simpleton why the manifold pressure stuff is important? I can't slam the throttle forward and aft at will is that what this is all about? I though that if there's no leak in the system then you don't have to worry about manifold pressure.

 

And the mustangs being developed late in the war did not use fuel injection but the BF109s which was developed since the start of the war did?

 

The carburetor the Merlin V1650-3 &-7 uses is the Stromberg Injection type and it feeds the engine with the necessary amount of fuel in respecting the altitude and fuel pressure. Plus, it's a supercharged engine, so the manifold pressure is very important (as in any engine). It's one of the most advanced and powerful engines constructed during the war. A real War Machine.

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A little late to the BBQ but thanks for comin', Coyote. :D

 

The mustang is like the F-16 to me, I grew out of it once I grew up. The Americans war machines are pretty, no doubt. To me, though, the Russians and Germans beat the Americans in war machine design all day long. The FW190s and BF109s are the best looking warbirds of its era and not to mention their cars. :D

ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P

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Because menu graphics is a big deal in this circumstance... :)

 

Seriosuly Bucic, there's more to this kind of feature than coding a bit of UI. You know that.

Yes, I know it's not done solely in UI but it's still hard to imagine the implementation as a serious coding investment. Of course I do acknowledge that I may not know about all the difficulties.

 

May I share an idea for even simpler implementation than the one found in Falcon 4.0? It probably occurred to someone before but maybe not. Here it goes:

- game reads 0 through 90% of axis input to actual 0 to 100% of in-game/real throttle position

- a key command of toggle type unlocks the rest of the range imitating WEP gate/detent/protection wire

 

Example (axis position / in-game signal):

...
000 / 000
090 / 100
WEP ENABLED
095 / 105
100 / 110
WEP DISABLED
100 / 100
WEP ENABLED
100 / 110
...

 

IIRC it's done like this in BoB 2 WoV and working well.


Edited by Bucic
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Yes, I know it's not done solely in UI but it's still hard to imagine the implementation as a serious coding investment. Of course I do acknowledge that I may not know about all the difficulties.

 

I agree. In the UI there is a tickbox, ala Falcon 4, which when clicked prob just takes the current output value of the joystick and put it into a variable which is then used throughout to determine when you go into AB/WEP. Cannot see it being such a big time investment issue.

With the price of ammunition these days do not expect a warning shot.

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Don't worry ! :)

Whatever ED will implement for WEP, be it the method mentioned in the Developer-Note (strictly separated) or a combination ...

 

We will be able to do whatever we want, using scripts and/or tools within 5min...

 

This is a example how to split up a physical axis to be used for two different functions inside of DCS.

 

Setting up PPJoy in real-time (5min)>>> Example how to split your throttle axis for WEP .

 

(I highly recommend watching it full-screen so everything is clearly readable)

 

 

...and BTW:

If we would be able to assign a axis more than only once in the row of a controller inside of DCS - this solution would be doable without a external helper like PPJoy.


Edited by PeterP

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  • ED Team
Out of curiosity, as you seem to be sitting on some solid documentation, how much power does the switch to second stage blower suck out of the engine in the modelled version?

 

Cheers,

Fred

There is no single exact answer. It depends on altitude, for example. At the altitude where brake hp is equal for the first and second speeds

the difference in the blower power is approximately 150 kW.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Yes, I know it's not done solely in UI but it's still hard to imagine the implementation as a serious coding investment. Of course I do acknowledge that I may not know about all the difficulties.

 

It's not only that it may or may not be a bigger job than meets the eye. It's also that there are about 5 million other things that are "so small it should be no problem".

 

And of course, neither of us really knows how easily the current model would accept such modification. There is a good tech proverb: the first 90% of development takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% take the other 90% of the time. Far from being just cheeky, it actually indicates something real - when you change things you can easily cause a cascade of effects that are hard to keep track of.

 

But of course, I'm not best placed to say where on the spectrum this ends up. But even if it is "relatively simply", it is still just one of hundreds of other "relatively simple" things, and implementing all of them would delay things for years. And when asked which few should be selected, everyone has their own favourites. (For example, I don't really care much about something like varying contrail conditions in FC2, but something as "simple" as proper TWS tracking in the F-15C... Surely that's "simple" enough? Except there's many many other people that have their own pet peeve that is also simple, and someone has to end up making the call of when to cut to make sure the game gets released and the company survives.)

 

May I share an idea for even simpler implementation than the one found in Falcon 4.0? It probably occurred to someone before but maybe not. Here it goes:

 

Unfortunately that one would mean that your input "jumps" in certain conditions, which isn't something I'd like. Of course, in games like BoB it's no problem, but jerky engine management here is a good way to have the plane do things you didn't intend for it to do. (Yes, I suck. :D ) Basically, what works in one game may not work in another, depending on a lot of things.

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Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер

Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz, ASUS Sabertooth P67, 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz, ASUS GTX 560Ti DirectCU II 1GB, Samsung 830series 512GB SSD, Corsair AX850w, two BENQ screens and TM HOTAS Warthog

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Thank you, Yo-Yo. That was the answer I was looking for. I have a decades-long fascination for these old powerplants and their associated airframes. To see developeer's notes which contained details on the internal mechanics has me thrilled beyond belief. I can't wait to do some performance testing in order to test my own perceptions of how they operate! Reading will have to be done. Will you be able to share manuals, such as the source document describing the valves in the MaP regulator?

 

Cheers,

Fred

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It's also that there are about 5 million other things that are "so small it should be no problem".

Completely understandable. Let's move on :)

 

Of course, in games like BoB it's no problem, but jerky engine management here is a good way to have the plane do things you didn't intend for it to do. (Yes, I suck. :D ) Basically, what works in one game may not work in another, depending on a lot of things.

Good point! I didn't think about this! Indeed, BoB 2 WoV has no serious consequences to jerky engine controls movements. But there's a simple solution to this problem as well. Just add:WEP DISABLE does not trigger in-game throttle go back to 100% if joystick throttle is >100% or similar or DOES but with a smoothed out movement.

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But there's a simple solution to this problem as well. Just add:WEP DISABLE does not trigger in-game throttle go back to 100% if joystick throttle is >100% or similar or DOES but with a smoothed out movement.

good idea ,but far too complicated...- the simplest solution is most of the time the best and robust!

Don't worry ! smile.gif

Whatever ED will implement for WEP, be it the method mentioned in the Developer-Note (strictly separated) or a combination ...

 

We will be able to do whatever we want, using scripts and/or tools within 5min...

 

This is a example how to split up a physical axis to be used for two different functions inside of DCS.

 

Setting up PPJoy in real-time (5min)>>> Example how to split your throttle axis for WEP .

 

(I highly recommend watching it full-screen so everything is clearly readable)

 

 

...and BTW:

If we would be able to assign a axis more than only once in the row of a controller inside of DCS - this solution would be doable without a external helper like PPJoy.

 

Well,... as I stated earlier - it would probably open Pandoras Box - but ED has to decide if the instruction will give enough clue how to properly set this up for a axis with a detent. -or simply only let this "double assignment" happen on the WEP axis.

Or simply let this as stated in the note.

 

We will see.

 

-whatever-

 

I know how to set this up - and I'm looking forward to the release.

;) And there is probably more than enough time to discuss this in ridiculous detail again while open-beta.


Edited by PeterP

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Sorry, Peter, I've missed your post. I don't read threads through and through recently.

 

nemises,

Really? (not a sarcasm, it's a genuine question) So the simplified implementation won't get in the way of cockpit builders?


Edited by Bucic
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Pardon me, what simplified implementation ?

Given the limitations of most HOTAS controllers used by virtual pilots, DCS Mustang will model the first method. This allows us to avoid having to rely on throttle detents or limit their range of movement in the pre-WEP range. As such, we will have a dedicated input command to engage WEP as a simulation of a cockpit control handle.

I clearly read it as = WEP will have its own axis.

 

How this can disturb cockpit builders?

 

A own axis it the best what cockpit builders can get - as they can build a dedicated handle - or bring throttle and WEP together like I showed in my vid.

Only a combination of WEP and throttle (like you asked for) would be inconvenient for pit-builders.

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I don't think that it will be a separate axis, as that would preclude many from using it. (But that is just my opinion, i don't know more than you do.)

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I'm very sure that ED will implement also a WEP "all or nothing" button , like they did in DCS-BlackShark with the throttle setting (Page-Up/Down) to help people out that have no dedicated lever for it - but if they really want to simulate a Merlin engine they will have to implement a gradually opening of the throttle beyond 100% military power.

 

So I'm very sure that there will also a axis setting for WEP , as it is not a simple on/off function. - if they will not - sentences like the last paragraph in the Note and this wouldn't make any sense at all to me:

 

 

Originally Posted by Bucic viewpost.gif

May I share an idea for even simpler implementation than the one found in Falcon 4.0? It probably occurred to someone before but maybe not. Here it goes:

Unfortunately that one would mean that your input "jumps" in certain conditions, which isn't something I'd like. Of course, in games like BoB it's no problem, but jerky engine management here is a good way to have the plane do things you didn't intend for it to do. (Yes, I suck. biggrin.gif ) Basically, what works in one game may not work in another, depending on a lot of things.

 

 

And we can't talk about a true engine simulation anymore - that would be only a WEP-scripting like we have in all other "games".


Edited by PeterP

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A WEP button toggling the MaP control range between a range capped at normal maximum and a range capped at the WEP maximum should do the trick. Will be slightly less than true-to-life for those with physical gates in their throttles (I'm one), but if that's the concession which has to be made for now to get us the product on-time and on-budget, I can't see a reason to be much upset. They're not saying we'll never see an F4 style implementation, just that we will not have it from day one.

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^^ although this would cause a jump in the net position of the "throttle" if WEP was enabled at any position other than 0 (assuming it were a button press).

 

I wonder (and I am just speculating here too, I do not know what the plans are) if the gross physical throttle axis will cover the WEP portion as well, but will be "soft" gated to a value of 85% (just a random figure there, no idea what portion of the throttle play is added by crossing the WEP gate), and then pressing the WEP button will un-gate the last 15% of the axis ...?

I think that would work... pit builders would need to set a physical gate which does a switch once the throttle crosses it, and acts as the key press..

 

HOTAS users can set a band in their software of choice to do the same thing...

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I'm very sure that ED will implement also a WEP "all or nothing" button , like they did in DCS-BlackShark with the throttle setting (Page-Up/Down) to help people out that have no dedicated lever for it - but if they really want to simulate a Merlin engine they will have to implement a gradually opening of the throttle beyond 100% military power.

 

There is no "gradually opening" with WEP, as far as I understand the mechanics of the engine, so a mere keypress would do the job pretty well. But as sobek knows way more than I do...

 

It might leave some sort of "touch of inconsistency" though, as the newer quadrant is being used. With the old quadrant and his dedicated WEP handle, things might be more obvious to the user. However, as with the throttle levers of the Shark, I'd consider this less serious/important than negligible ;)

 

And from a pit builders perspective, it should be even easier to implement (simple microswitch, for example) than an axis command.

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