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P51 not fun due to so many problems.


Snapage

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I am starting to really not enjoy this plane because it has so many problems that ruin the experience to often. This plane gives me a frustrating negitive experience when:

 

The prop governed dies most of the time after taking damage from enemy aircraft.

 

The control surfaces fall off between 490mph and 505mph without any compression or significant control stiffening.

 

The aircraft over g's and loses a wing without any significant control stiffening or any indication that the aircraft is being stressed apart from staring down at the g indicator which you can't do in combat.

 

Enemy aircraft absorb half your ammunition and still fly back to base.

 

There is a 100% chance of engine seizure at a random point after using WEP for any length of time.

 

Not able to get away from the main planes it fights because it's to slow and WEP can't be used for above reason.

 

The plane has no chance in a dogfight versus the plane it has to fight the most, the 109 K4 and is to slow to get away as well.

 

This plane can only be used to dive on enemy aircraft and then dive away if you don't get them. But that's only if you can spot anything below you which is almost impossible in DCS depending on your set up.

 

Some of these issues were not issues previously. Spotting while not great was definitely better in DCS 1.5 You could do emergency gear up landings successfully without any trouble. The P51D could even run away from the german planes using the 2700rpm trick which you shouldn't be able to do but made up for the fact that WEP is unusable. All changes that have been made to the P51D so far seem to be changes that make the P51D worse.

 

I flew the FW190D9 recently and it was a relief to fly compared to the P51D. While taking off I felt a sence of freedom and control, I new I could use WEP reliably without the engine dieing, I new I had a good chance fighting any allied aircraft I would encounter and that any aircraft I get decent shots into will go down. I only shot down one aircraft but had a great time fighting the other team. It was nice not having to deal with all the problems the P51D module has.

 

This is my experience and the reason why the P51D is just not fun to fly at the moment. I can enjoy the plane but more and more my experience is being ruined by these issues and I am really wondering if any of this will be fixed? I am keen for thw up coming P47D but can I get the module when it might share the same problems the P51D has?

 

What are your thoughts and experiences?

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I've stopped playing DCS WWII for the time being. While I trust ED has done their best to follow documentation of the flight characteristics to create the flight model, I have doubts over using documentation of tests in uncontrolled environments with old tech from the 40s. I am told very frequently, right and left, that the Mustang could out-turn the 109 at all but low speeds. I'm thinking that either the Mustang in DCS needs to have some fine tuning (or even an overhaul in FM), or the arm strength of the 109 pilots can get another look. If the P-47 was having wind tunnel trails being done, I imagine that would be the most aerodynamically faithful warbird yet, to the real life counterpart. The Mustang getting similar treatment may reveal some things.

 

The engine isn't alive. It's static. There's no dynamics given to it. It's half-heartedly simulated, and I think that (Spit too) would hugely benefit from a look at the details and nuances of the Merlin. I think A2A did a good job (it's a dev not a game, don't delete this, moderators), and I can only imagine what ED could do if they put as much detail into engine modeling as they did flight modeling.

 

The exterior model is very old, it could use a sprucing up. It's not as bad as the Ka-50 though...

 

150 grade fuel, still waiting for that. I'm not expecting a significant boost in performance, but regardless.


Edited by Magic Zach

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P-51D, I watched quick interview with bf109 pilot claming that bf109 will outturn p-51 easly, but it is slower then p-51, p-51 will not follow bf109 in climb.(not energy climb but engine pure climb).He was refering to G6

With K-4 it is overkill in 1v1 combat

67" at 2700 was ridiculous power setting.

If we could rock 67" reliably, that would be a game changer.

I alwayes thinking how many p-51s and pilots were sacrificed to make top speed charts for 67" :) From SL up to 36k or more.

I've read couple after action reports, some pilots were claming that they exceeded 505 limit w/o taking any damage to airframe, but it could be just airspeed gage error too.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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The Mustang is very good for ground attack. For the dogfight (imagining that In DCS, the flight model is similar to reality ... "doubt, doubt ..."), it is only good for "Boom and Zoom" and leave. If a Bf109 makes several turns, it will be a winner (the Mustang loses speed quickly and takes time to recover, it rises less strong and less time, it picks up faster, it's just a big stone compared to the K4 .). The only strength of the P51 is to be able to shoot from a distance. It is better to fly in a group with this plane or to meet "less experienced pilots" to really go dogfight and win! Apart from the fact that since the last update where I find that it flies less well and heats more (that's my impression), I rarely break the engine. I fly a lot in Mustang and Spitfire (about the latter, the boom and zoom on the German side has become so usual that I do not want to use it ..... difference in speed and power of fire, resistance of the cabin mediocre), when I pass Red side in BF109, if I do not let myself near by the Six, almost no Mustang destroys me in Dogfight 1vs1 ..... the BF is the "best" current module and the most powerful in flight !!!!!! I'm not an expert in the history of WWII aircraft, but I think it would take more different planes in the Warbirds to please everyone and create more enjoyable multiplayer missions ..... and more consistent with the reality of the Second World War, which is historically for me not the case ...... at least not in this simulator ......

Ps: The P47D will be worse than the P51 ..... very very big stone but great firepower ..... it will not go in dogfight with him !!!!!

For the team of ED: 3d super well done (models of flight .... mmm, I am not convinced but more convincing than any other simulators; Assets packs not finished (and I hope that if there is addition , it will not be with price supplements .....) Lack of different versions of aircraft models (series of BF and P51 and Spitfire).

I still say a big congratulations and thank you for all the work done by the team of DCS (Long live you).

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  • ED Team
I've stopped playing DCS WWII for the time being. While I trust ED has done their best to follow documentation of the flight characteristics to create the flight model, I have doubts over using documentation of tests in uncontrolled environments with old tech from the 40s. I am told very frequently, right and left, that the Mustang could out-turn the 109 at all but low speeds.

 

 

Regarding the 109's stick forces. I posted an investigation based both on German and Russian flight test that shows that the forces are moderate EXCEPT the high M conditions. I also have at least two vitnesses, one from Erich Brunotte and the second (that is available in Internet) from another German pilot about the cases of high-speed uncontrollable diving from high altitude. In both cases the planes became controllable at lower altitudes but at very high IAS. If you refer to "IAS overstiffness" in other games - it does not match reality.

 

 

The engine isn't alive. It's static. There's no dynamics given to it. It's half-heartedly simulated, and I think that (Spit too) would hugely benefit from a look at the details and nuances of the Merlin. I think A2A did a good job (it's a dev not a game, don't delete this, moderators), and I can only imagine what ED could do if they put as much detail into engine modeling as they did flight modeling.

 

I can not admit your point of view. What nuances of Merlin do you want to see? Manifold pressure drop as rpm rises? They truly modeled in DCS using our thermodynamic model. R-R manifold pressure imperfection? You can encounter it any time you climb at 46/2700 and have to advance the throttl gradually to reach critical altitude keeping 46". Do you see it in other combat sim?

 

True supercharger model: at 25C try set 2000 rpm with the prop governor, then fully open the throttle. In this case MP regulator does not work, because actual MP is lower than 61". Note the MP. Then try it at -20C, for example. Note the MP.

Try it in other games.

 

Bendix-Stromberg carburettor modelled with all its internal logic.

 

The attention to the detail and love we give for the engines... Try to Abbremsen procedure for FW 190A-8 in DCS then compare to other games. Try warm-up procedure checking the relief valve work (oil pressure limits) for cold and warm oil respectively. Try the same in any other sim you like.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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And a question for those who claim P-51 is much worse than German planes: did you ever try to fill its tanks for the same flight time Germans have?

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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  • ED Team

67" at 2700 was ridiculous power setting.

 

It is ENGINE KILLER power setting due to overboost.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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It is ENGINE KILLER power setting due to overboost.

 

Yes, piston is traveling too slow to escape from air-fule mixture blast, exceeding knock pressure limit and killing engine quick.I don't think that v-1650 had knock preventing system which would retard timing on ignition when knock occurred


Edited by grafspee

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And a question for those who claim P-51 is much worse than German planes: did you ever try to fill its tanks for the same flight time Germans have?

 

Actually, yes, you're right.. It all comes down to how much fuel you got.

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Actually, yes, you're right.. It all comes down to how much fuel you got.

 

Yes, but flying p-51 with little fuel is tricky because you have fuel splited in to tank w/o interconnection

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Yes, but flying p-51 with little fuel is tricky because you have fuel splited in to tank w/o interconnection

 

Blame it on the engineers.. :)

Specs:

Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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Regarding the 109's stick forces. I posted an investigation based both on German and Russian flight test that shows that the forces are moderate EXCEPT the high M conditions. I also have at least two vitnesses, one from Erich Brunotte and the second (that is available in Internet) from another German pilot about the cases of high-speed uncontrollable diving from high altitude. In both cases the planes became controllable at lower altitudes but at very high IAS. If you refer to "IAS overstiffness" in other games - it does not match reality.

 

 

I can not admit your point of view. What nuances of Merlin do you want to see? Manifold pressure drop as rpm rises? They truly modeled in DCS using our thermodynamic model. R-R manifold pressure imperfection? You can encounter it any time you climb at 46/2700 and have to advance the throttl gradually to reach critical altitude keeping 46". Do you see it in other combat sim?

 

True supercharger model: at 25C try set 2000 rpm with the prop governor, then fully open the throttle. In this case MP regulator does not work, because actual MP is lower than 61". Note the MP. Then try it at -20C, for example. Note the MP.

Try it in other games.

 

Bendix-Stromberg carburettor modelled with all its internal logic.

 

The attention to the detail and love we give for the engines... Try to Abbremsen procedure for FW 190A-8 in DCS then compare to other games. Try warm-up procedure checking the relief valve work (oil pressure limits) for cold and warm oil respectively. Try the same in any other sim you like.

 

What about thermostatic valves in oil and coolant system in spitfire, i have feeling that it is not working properly when recucing MP to 4lbs coolant temp drops like crazy to 40C it suposed to slow pace after 80C

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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  • ED Team
Yes, piston is traveling too slow to escape from air-fule mixture blast, exceeding knock pressure limit and killing engine quick.I don't think that v-1650 had knock preventing system which would retard timing on ignition when knock occurred

 

I can say more: ignition timing is directly linked to the throttle lever, so fully advanced throttle means the best timing for 3000 and not for 2700. Increasing boost to 67" you get much closer to detonation limits.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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I think the poster has some point when it comes to engine failure. It's not a binary on-off-thing. There should be more signs of engine roughness and audible changes before it totally brakes.

 

Don't want to mention the other developer here again who managed to mimic that quite good...

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Set mustang fuel to 35% and you will have roughly the same fuel as a fully loaded kurfurst. That will balance the odds a bit.

 

Just remember to switch tanks every 2 or 3 minutes.

 

Concerning engine management, I never had a problem with the engine following the chart times for engine settings and nursing the coolant and oil temperatures on fight.

 

The mustang teaches you to stay fast and manage your energy. You have the best drag in the world and an efficient radiator. But if you fall under 200 Mph then you are just dead, either by enemy fire or your own engine fire.

 

Also, like it was historically, you are not supposed to survive or win every engagement. Just follow the fighter rules and once you lost the advantage run away to fight other day.

 

I win some and lose some all the time. Good thing about sims is that you can lose all fights you want without consequences, in real life you could win all fights but you could only lose one.

 

Oh, and the Pony is a fine plane.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Set mustang fuel to 35% and you will have roughly the same fuel as a fully loaded kurfurst. That will balance the odds a bit.

 

Just remember to switch tanks every 2 or 3 minutes.

 

Concerning engine management, I never had a problem with the engine following the chart times for engine settings and nursing the coolant and oil temperatures on fight.

 

The mustang teaches you to stay fast and manage your energy. You have the best drag in the world and an efficient radiator. But if you fall under 200 Mph then you are just dead, either by enemy fire or your own engine fire.

 

Also, like it was historically, you are not supposed to survive or win every engagement. Just follow the fighter rules and once you lost the advantage run away to fight other day.

 

I win some and lose some all the time. Good thing about sims is that you can lose all fights you want without consequences, in real life you could win all fights but you could only lose one.

 

Oh, and the Pony is a fine plane.

 

:thumbup:

 

This is why I love these forums, that right there is advice worth gold.

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I think that some of the issue of balance sits in the hands of the server owners.

After all, it's VERY easy to disable MW50 availability for the Luftwaffe aircraft, and once you're done that, the aircraft are much closer in ability for the time period for the Mustang that we have.

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I think that some of the issue of balance sits in the hands of the server owners.

 

After all, it's VERY easy to disable MW50 availability for the Luftwaffe aircraft, and once you're done that, the aircraft are much closer in ability for the time period for the Mustang that we have.

Kind of, but you break the purpose of the sim doing this. You can only convince ED to develop an 109 G model or add the 100 octane fuel to the game or the P51 H model. It has been already discussed several times by now, I'm sure.. Cheers!

 

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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  • ED Team
What about thermostatic valves in oil and coolant system in spitfire, i have feeling that it is not working properly when recucing MP to 4lbs coolant temp drops like crazy to 40C it suposed to slow pace after 80C

 

Sorry, it's known and half-fixed bug... will try to push it :)

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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If you want similar ac in a fight then just give everyone mustangs. Otherwise figure out how to deal with dissimilar ac with dissimilar fuel loads just like the actual pilots did.

 

It’s hardly a revelation that a mustang should avoid a turn fight with a 109 unless you have gone through the trouble of whittling Down the Luftwaffes fighter pilot experience over several years of losses, and you don’t have to worry about several hours worth of fuel to fly home and you have the kind of overwhelming numbers we enjoyed for most of the war.

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Yes I have flown the P51D with low fuel. It performs much better but it still has no chance vs a 109K4 pilot that can do more then just a horizontal turn or knows how to use thier flaps. I think making WEP useable without engine failure(if used for 5 mins or less at a time) would be enough but this plane has more problems then just fight performance vs K4. I am not sure if I would want a more powerful P51D but I do want a P51D that can use WEP reliably.

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If the stick forces are realistic then great but there is no way to know when your wings are going to eject them selves unless you stare at g meter which you can't do in a fight. Especially not in DCS because targets are so hard to see that if you look away you will lose them. This ruins a lot flights for me and others. I see P51s losing wings to over g or control surfaces at high speed a lot.

 

You can say "just don't over g the plane" but how? Cant stare at speed and g meter and there is no other way of knowing that the plane is being stressed that I know of.

 

Those people who have not encountered engine failure after using WEP just have not stayed in the plane long enough after using it. The engine will stop suddenly with a loud bang. If you have landed and turned the engine off before this happens you will hear a loud bang and will not be able to turn the engine on. Yes, the engine will die at a seemingly random point even when turned off. It will happen at any time after using WEP. Probably between 20 and 40 minutes after WEP most of the time. Sooner if your unlucky.

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If you really love the P-51 you'll figure out how to make it work. War was hardly ever even on both sides.

 

Fly fast and only fly with a wingman.

 

btw..I never use WEP. Why would I keep using something that doesn't work like it should and expect different results?

Buzz

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Set mustang fuel to 35% and you will have roughly the same fuel as a fully loaded kurfurst. That will balance the odds a bit.

 

Just remember to switch tanks every 2 or 3 minutes.

 

Concerning engine management, I never had a problem with the engine following the chart times for engine settings and nursing the coolant and oil temperatures on fight.

 

The mustang teaches you to stay fast and manage your energy. You have the best drag in the world and an efficient radiator. But if you fall under 200 Mph then you are just dead, either by enemy fire or your own engine fire.

 

Also, like it was historically, you are not supposed to survive or win every engagement. Just follow the fighter rules and once you lost the advantage run away to fight other day.

 

I win some and lose some all the time. Good thing about sims is that you can lose all fights you want without consequences, in real life you could win all fights but you could only lose one.

 

Oh, and the Pony is a fine plane.

 

How do you run away when the enemy planes are faster then you? I have not said anything about surviving every fight. I have said that the P51D is not fun to fly(in combat).

 

I have been flying the DCS mustang for four years now. I know all the tricks and they are not good enough. You are always at a massive dissadvantage vs the 109K4. WEP would probably be enough to allow you to get away from the K4 but you can't use it without engine failure so it kind of defeats the purpose.

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