ED, tell us where DCS is going (are we just customers, or friends?)

level of discussion bar needs to rise on this forum. ft

It always amaze me, when a newbie attempts to teach a veteran :)

 

Youth is sought after in companies due to the youth's innovation and so on.

 

Relax your veteran standards, the only time you have completed your learning is when you have left this life.

 

Until then, live and learn.

level of discussion bar needs to rise on this forum. ft

+1

level of discussion bar needs to rise on this forum. ft

 

Agreed, sadly every two weeks somebody feels compelled to start threads about how ED will make gagillions if only they listened to their expert armchair advice

Look. ED appears to take hard action to improve DCS now. That is great!!!!

Cheer them on!

Modders: Do not overcommit to working for free to change a product that will change every now and then. Quit modding creating endless variations of the core game. Let ED work and improve the sim. Modders pull in all sorts of directions creating confusions and a install hassle that feels like cracking games was back in the day.

 

Let ED move DCS into the future and do their thing. Loving what's comming this year. Thanks guys!

Modders are the backbone of every community and helps to keep a product fresh and alive.

- new ideas

- Improvement

- challenges

- Options

If a SIM or a game is not mod-able, it`s dead after a short period of time.

 

I think that ED is on the Right way and made good decisions. 2.5.6 was not so nice so far. But hey- it`s a beta. Some Things can go wrong. Thats why it`s just an open BETA.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

 

PS: The most important thing is: make good bug Reports!

Edited February 19, 2020 by TOMCATZ

The actual modders comunity has builded mods as A-4C and others very good mods with the actual DCS "open" features, That dont need the SDK.

 

If someone like build anything more profesional, only need contact with ED team and present a module project, to convert them on a licensing 3rd party.

Just because someone built a mod without ED's assistance doesn't mean it is not needed.

Just because someone built a mod without ED's assistance doesn't mean it is not needed.

 

From russian forum to access to the SDK:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4213309&postcount=17024

To use the features included on SDK, you need:

* a team of specialists is assembled in sufficient quantity and quality to produce a virtual model

* a simulation object is selected

* a modeling object is agreed with ED

* a team is preparing a business plan

* a team is coordinating its plans with ED

* the team is signing a contract

* the team is receiving SDK

 

Other point, to build maps you require the TDK (Terrain develop kit) with the SDK.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

Modders are the backbone of every community and helps to keep a product fresh and alive.

- new ideas

- Improvement

- challenges

- Options

If a SIM or a game is not mod-able, it`s dead after a short period of time.

 

I think that ED is on the Right way and made good decisions. 2.5.6 was not so nice so far. But hey- it`s a beta. Some Things can go wrong. Thats why it`s just an open BETA.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

 

PS: The most important thing is: make good bug Reports!

 

That’s not necessarily the case though. Games like iRacing, ACC, Elite dangerous and Eve are predominantly online so have no traditional mod support. All that’s required is for the devs to release good new content to keep players interested, and paying...

 

I think the flight sim genre just has a history of abandonware, F4, FS, IL2 BOB, where the baton has been carried by modders. As content becomes more complex it’s becoming much more difficult for someone to create high quality stuff in their free time, competing with pro dev team content is very time consuming and frequently will only happen when the end product becomes payware as an incentive.

That’s not necessarily the case though. Games like iRacing, ACC, Elite dangerous and Eve are predominantly online so have no traditional mod support. All that’s required is for the devs to release good new content to keep players interested, and paying...

 

I think the flight sim genre just has a history of abandonware, F4, FS, IL2 BOB, where the baton has been carried by modders. As content becomes more complex it’s becoming much more difficult for someone to create high quality stuff in their free time, competing with pro dev team content is very time consuming and frequently will only happen when the end product becomes payware as an incentive.

 

Yeah, I would agree with these sentiments. The DCS model is completely different from most this stuff. I mean, they're doing core engine overhauls to the base game for free and your already purchased models. Other games would call that a $60 sequel. Bit of a different environment here.

 

DCS has ALREADY been around a long time, and they're just now getting up to speed producing aircraft and terrain. I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon. Eventually, yeah, they'll pass the torch or start all over again, but not for a long time.

If a SIM or a game is not mod-able, it`s dead after a short period of time.

 

DCS World is not 1-2 years old.... It is continuity of the Flanker from 1995, so it has been around long without such modding community few would like to see.

DCS (and older iterations of the game) have fairly large modding community.

 

Notice that I said "such few would like to see", not denying there are all kind mods already....

While I dont think SDK will ever be availble because "BUSINESS" I hope modders will at least get some support on how to implement some things that they are not able to make them work.

 

For example: radios are something that they didnt figure out how to implement.

You may read that they are something "locked behind the SDK" , a statement which is partially true.

It's not really locked , we just dont have a working example in existing documentation.

 

So, even just some documentation could be a turning point for DCS modding.

Bad enough that people can turn their trees off or down when should be server enforced!

 

That's because of bad server admins.

You can enforce trees but that's through the mission files not through server settings

Let me help you out with some things, my 'business graduate' friend!

"games with thriving modding communities are always the most profitable and long lived. "

No one disagrees, that in the right conditions with the right product, the relevant community is happier being able to mod and it may lead to long since dead products reviving some unit sales.

 

But you embarrassingly miss fundaments.

 

1. This is what we have, this is what they are doing, right now.

 

2. The business model of allowing a community to propel the main product relies on the community being capable of doing so and the longevity of the product being absolute and not sunsetted. You directly compare HL2's modding capacity to DCS mods. You must be a skinner, only an artist has that level of imagination.

 

Incidentally, the quality of the modules, and effort required IS the reason, because planes take a long time to produce, they have to be sold. DCS began with a single, isolated product model, then changed. Tell me how the years with just BlackShark and A-10C with open modding would have changed the fundamental lack of content in DCSW. In fact, lets just start selling the core game, it's worth 30 bucks right? And giving the modules away for life whilst relying on the modding community for core game sales. That would include relying on the teams that did the A4, the MB339 and um... am I missing a relevant free developer in the last ten years that did a plane half well? Wait.... where are all these OTHER community developers? Should we count the failed deelopment projects along the way with their ambitious, "I bought a TurboSquid model and painted it, ergo I can make planes for DCS"? No one is stopping anyone develop, but apparently you think we'll have a better product if we enable the SDK for all and we can get proper carrier traps and radios on the A4, because that will rake in the Steam users, right!? Off you go and do me a nice FM please, because we do need that. Maybe you should sit back in DCS 1.5 and play all the mods by Hawkeye crammed into an SU-25 cockpit and be happy. There are no quality mods out there, just a couple of comparitively mediocre ones. Sorry for the insult to those teams and people, not meant. This is comparative to full DLC, not in a bubble. I've managed only being part of a ship mod, myself, I've moddelled I've made a Scud missile FM, I've done plugins, I've done basic models, I do not texture, I taught myself a programming language for a hobby, I've written tens of thousands of lines of scripting and I know DCS innards very deeply, I support a scripting midleware language that is the backbone of many community servers and I help people every day learn to write Lua. In fact I was up until 1am last night helping a 767 pilot load a script, because I believe in community. I spent 15hours over christmas teaching the IAF virtual squadron lessons in how to use MOOSE and script.

The reason is not that it's gated by ED, the reason is it's HARD and needs experts. DCS is neither a Garry's world HL2 mod, or as easy to create, and you demean the entire community by suggesting it.

 

"You're joking right? DCS exists - in the current state - because there is exactly zero competition."

I hear this a lot. Competition helps, and it has plenty from games that no longer make money and are band aided. DCS exists in its current state because it's not mainstream enough to warrant the cash injection for the revenue. It's basic maths and your steam figures support that point, but your business degree seemed to have missed it. Any time people allude to Eagle Dynamics deliberately under investing in DCS because they have no competition, a small (and more intelligent) kitten dies. Whilst it's not a charity, it breaks even, it's practically a charity built by passion. It is indeed supported by a wider umbrella charity, but enough to say, you don't need a business degree to know that going into flight sim development isn't the best way to make money. Your average Bank Manager would tell you that.

 

"I assume you mean market standard. There is no market. There are currently slightly more than 500 players playing DCS. "

You are proving you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and backing it up with numbers! I honestly don't need your help to show you that your argument is nonsense. Here's some market numbers from the owner: Try running some tools on your servers and you will see that those multiplayer daily numbers you picked off, rotate between a lot of casual MP as well as missing an enormous amount of offline players. The same link above highlights the reasoning behind it, but of course, elevate yourself to knowing better by citing unit sales of A3, because we all know they are absolutely the same thing as DCS, right? Right? Same mindset as an A3 squad leader saying to me, "Hey you play DCS, you get on the chopper, you must be good". Hilarious, "Dipshit, if I wanted to fly choppers I'd fly them in DCS, I came here to shoot people".

But, keep on comparing your business models, using your business degree and completely ignore the owners comments saying a toned down version of what I'm saying.

 

"Perhaps you are better at reading minds than you are at business."

I'm very slow at reading minds actually. But I've finished yours, it wasn't a long read.

 

"Tell me about your business degree."

Let me explain life to you. I have no degree and am absolutely at the top of my game. I'm 47, part of a critical response fly-to-site Enterprise global troubleshooting team working with developers every day on security software in a company that has over 99% of the the internet traffic flowing through one product or another. In our global NASDAQ-100 company, I'm a year-on-year top performer, with a Developed Vetting security clearance (you might need to look up the implications of that) and my profile on Linked-In is easily found if you put the parts together. I am not an anonymous person. I am compensated above the industry average (you can check that on glass ceiling if you want to cry, but it's 3 x's higher than a commercial jet pilot starting out and way more than a fighter jet pilot), and I do enjoy listening to what graduates think and having a good laugh over lunchtime!

I think we still take interns 3 pay scales beneath me, but from fixing their messes, I'm still not a strong believer that paper degrees are worth anything compared to practical common sense. Thank you for participating in this discussion and allowing us to record a permanent record for the internet!

 

 

That is an interesting distinction. I am not sure it is as profound as it is being presented as though.

 

I have no idea how old you are or how much experience you have with games and mods so I'll be gentle. This has been said a billion times about mods. However, games with thriving modding communities are always the most profitable and long lived.

 

Mods exist in a free market. The good ones are used and the bad ones are not. The good ones amplify the sales of the product and the bad ones simply never get traction. This may not sit well with armchair warriors but it is the reality of what happens.

 

You're joking right? DCS exists - in the current state - because there is exactly zero competition. If you examine the scripting of the modules, and the skins, and you look at the folder structure - basically everything that is open to be looked at you will see it is a complete mess of barely working items that obey no consistent standards across the products.

 

If you get into skinning and attempt to skin the premier product from ED the F-18C lot 20 you'll find that the model is misshapen, with folds sticking out the bottom from the top. Various pixel densities exist across the skin files...

 

I assume you mean market standard. There is no market. There are currently slightly more than 500 players playing DCS.

 

Here are how many people have been playing Half-Life, a 1990s game with a thriving modding community https://steamcharts.com/app/70

 

Here's how many people are playing Day of Defeat, a BF1942 mod, and moved to the Source engine. https://steamcharts.com/search/?q=Day+of+Defeat

 

Yes, and as we can see there are an endless list of developers who enjoy working with ED so much that they are going out of their way to invest in reaching those 500 players.... Tell me about your business degree.

 

Perhaps you are better at reading minds than you are at business.

That’s not necessarily the case though. Games like iRacing, ACC, Elite dangerous and Eve are predominantly online so have no traditional mod support. All that’s required is for the devs to release good new content to keep players interested, and paying...

 

I think the flight sim genre just has a history of abandonware, F4, FS, IL2 BOB, where the baton has been carried by modders. As content becomes more complex it’s becoming much more difficult for someone to create high quality stuff in their free time, competing with pro dev team content is very time consuming and frequently will only happen when the end product becomes payware as an incentive.

 

 

I have not much experience in modding but I like that fact the people are able to import new stuff into the sim. And often it is the launch for a great professional project. Someone started to build a Nevada map for LockOn, Props, crowds, ships and Infantry. I think that was the start for a lot of modules we have now.

 

 

 

As an example: In Germany we have a game called "Landwirtsschaftssimulator". It is one of the most successful games in Germany because it`s very Mod-friendly. Der "Landwirtschafts-Simulator 2019 ging laut dem Bericht bis dato schon über zwei Million en Mal über die Ladentheke.- They sold more them two million copies of the 2019 version. And it`s just farming. :huh:"

 

 

 

Whatever. I like the latest improvements by ED.

 

Cheers

Tom

@Pikey: I mostly agree with you, and respect for your work, but you cannot judge a modder skillset by comparing his work with a full DLC.

 

Is it even possible to make a nice FM without API, SDK, developer tools, documentation?

 

 

On topic: ED are trying hard. Stuff happens. We are (or should be with some minor exceptions) all be friends. They don't do this for giggles, they do it for passion like us.

 

Hi Nikola,

Yes sure you can! :) Capt Smiley wrote the F-16 EFM proof of concept based on the Wunderluft model provided by ED as an independent person and now works for Razbam! You can also check out the MB339's EFM, it seems better than the VEAO Hawk was iirc:

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=244476

 

MB339: New C++ EFM, which includes the following features:

• Adverse yaw
  
• Stall and spin
  
• The weapons release affects the flight dynamics
  
• The payload drag is based on the “Drag Index” information reported on the MB339 performance manual
  
• Ground effect during take-off and landing
  
• The compressibility effects acts on the aerodynamic data
  
• Buffeting due to stall and due to high speed (Mach > 0.78 )
  
• Pitching moment and cockpit shaking due to extension of speed brake, gear and flaps
  
• Enhanced rolling friction based on the real MB339 take off times
  
• Implemented anti-skid
  
• Multi crew feature (currently without systems synchronization)
  
• The engine performances are based on the data of the real Viper 632-43 (thrust, fuel consumption, exhaust gas temperature)
  

No SDK.

 

So, if a team can do that unlicensed, no SDK and other 3rd parties with a license couldnt (as well), (no names that begin with V) what does that tell you about how much the SDK is a barrier? It's clearly not, as evidenced, the MB339 is absolutely amazing and Philstyle said he'd pay for it, it was that good in his video review.

 

So yes, sir, I politely disagree, with evidence, that you CAN "judge a modder skillset by comparing his work with a full DLC". Because that's where these all folks started from. SDK not required, ED do not need to help people, they aren't blocking anything, the best will float to the top.

Remember some details...... some examples of previous MODs without SDK..... (with turn on 3rd parties)

- old Beczl Mig-21Bis Mod (after turn into Leatherneck / Heatblur / Magnitude 3 teams)

- Peyvolt Mod (turn on Aviodev).

- Deka Ironwork (make a IA pack and turn on 3rd party).

 

And of course the "Opposite side" (the graveyard has full of good intentions)...

only a little part of teams with 3rd party status, with intent convert of "official" 3rd party, get the SDK or working on projets before the SDK expected turn on "official", including MODs

- Beczl Mig-23ML and AI units pack

- Black Cat Simulations Tu-22M3 Troika

- Coretex F-18E (some team members form Polychop / Miltech 5)

- Delz-Aviation Mig-19PM

- IRIS (DB-5J, F-22, F-14, F-15E, T-38C)

- Kyney Interactive: F-35

- Mil-Sim: MBB-339A

- Red Wing simulations: NH-90, Dornier Alpha jet

- Tailored Radials DHC-4 Caribou

- TeamVCR: F-100 Hum

- VBS: MB339

- VEAO (A-4C SkyHawk, Grov Tutor, Ha1112, Hawk, Super Tucano, Spitfire MkXIV, F8F-2 Bearcat, Grumman F4F WildCat, Sea Fury, Gloster Meteor F3, Eurofighter, Dehavilland Vampire Fb5, P-40F Kittyhawk)

- Virtual Patriots: L-39 Albatros

 

ED get the SDK on 2008 on BS times..... and finally the "conditions" to get the SDK changed with someone intent use them to "bad" intentions.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

So, more 3rd party projects failed than modder projects :D

 

errr... As I say, teams with intent convert of "official" 3rd party, get the SDK or working on projets before the SDK expected turn on "official", including MODs... :huh: and someone continue talking about "we can make better without 3rd parties only making MODs".

 

And only put a "small" list. If I search the MOD never release and "claimed" on the DCS forum, surelly has more failed MODs without the projects never complete.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

IMO modding can bring some good ideas on the table by using code variants in order to improve base sim. I think that community manager could sometimes perhaps talk a bit more about some mods to the ED team simply because some mods are made as "showcases" of what could be done better for some assets ingame.

 

People who simply say "Modding is always worse than official content" simply never modded anything and lack a lot of respect toward those who spend thousands of hours working hard with one idea in head : improve base experience. Let me take my own example on this :

 

I am making a Leclerc tank with full interior and external API in order to have a complete C4ISR system able to communicate datas with other planes and practicaly replace most of the basic "half done" Combined Arms GUI, using the real life manual. Model I make for the Leclerc uses real measurements, working with RL instructors, and is 386 000 triangles with 4K PBR textures, which is already more than most aircraft paid models you have ingame. Interior too uses thousands of reference pics in order to get the most accurate result you could get in any sim whatsoever. Meanwhile the Abrams or Leopard 2 models don't have the right measurements (12.5 m long for a Leo 2A5 instead of 10.97 m) and the global CA is extraordinarily limited. Extraordinarily more limited. Because it is left aside of dev work for years now.

 

What's the purpose of such mod I make ? Is it to say "Ow look at my beautiful Leclerc I am so good xoxoxo #IamGod" ? It is to try to show ED that CA has a lot of potential and that some time could be spent on it. I would not have any problem in helping them on my own time. Is ED able to do far better than what I do ? Of course they are, they have all the core coding tools that I don't have. The sole purpose is to show them that it's already possible to do great things with not much and so that spending few hours on improving their code could allow great things. I know that there are some mod assets which are sometimes quite limited, but when I read this :

 

"at the end of the day modded content is bad. they cause problems and they have low quality standards. even the most well-constructed mod does not come close to matching a professional production. i honestly could not give any less of a rat's wet fart if they ceased to exist."

 

I simply want to ask : Who are you to insult other people work ? People criticize the "expert armchair man who gives advices to ED" but don't have any problem to insult the persons who actually simply make better quality stuff than what's in base game for FREE. It is better quality stuff. There is nothing to say about it, it is made and thought to be better in order to show ED that there is more potential in their modules than what they sometimes seem to think.

 

The purpose of many modders is to try their best to bring new and sometimes better content than the original one. It's not always true, it's even rarely true, but again, if there any CA users here, is this Leclerc project a downgrade compared to what exists today ? Wouldn't you like to get this kind of work, this kind of dedication by default on the sim ?

 

This whole thread is one of the main reasons I post less and less on this forum : people think that because you mod, then it's necessarily lower quality content. It is not always true, really. Some people set quality levels for their product that they use in their current job in sometimes far wealthier companies than ED (with all respect to ED itself). So please be respectful toward each other work because this kind of post I quote is nothing else than pure insult and I don't even understand why @Bignewy you allow this kind of thing to happen. We work for free, on our free time, to bring people nice content. Nothing else.

 

For the remaining part of the topic, no SDK is asked by anyone, though sometimes someone to answer some very simple questions could be nice. Bignewy, I asked you a simple question by PM, is there a possibility to one day get an answer, even if it is a simple "NO !" ? What's the result of producing such very high quality showcase ? More CA sells for example at least in French community. Does ED complain about this you think ?

 

Again, it is made in the intent to make some showcases of the sim potential, nothing more. There is no ego involved in this, simply passion and the pleasure to share it.

 

Nicolas

Edited February 22, 2020 by dimitriov

practicaly replace most of the basic "half done" Combined Arms GUI

 

ED never has tell about build a acurated representation about vehicle cockpits on CA. They only make a "soft" representation as radars on SAMs.

 

Meanwhile the Abrams or Leopard 2 models don't have the right measurements (12.5 m long for a Leo 2A5 instead of 10.97 m)

 

The Lecrerc, leo 2, M1 tanks coming from Ka-50/FC-2/A-10C times and was none to do with CA. That is only a small part of a great hundred of 3D models to update by ED from Lomac/FC times, that take time, planning and resources.

 

and the global CA is extraordinarily limited. Extraordinarily more limited. Because it is left aside of dev work for years now.

 

CA never has planned has a "hardcore" representation of ground warfare and your systems. That require a dedicated team as resources at same level of Aircrafts and Helos on DCS, meanwhile has some plans from some interviews:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4143665&postcount=12

Edited February 22, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

@dmitriov

Yeah, it's almost like the main focus of this thing is airplanes or something....weird, huh?

@dmitriov

Yeah, it's almost like the main focus of this thing is airplanes or something....weird, huh?

 

Yeah sure. Still CA GUI probably is the worst RTS GUI ever done in a videogame but costs more than most RTS.

 

If you do something, do it well, noone ever asked for a tank simulation of DCS, but if you want to go arcade, then do a good arcade job, not a half done work. If you don't want to touch it anymore, at least let motivated people more freedom to improve it. It's not a critic to criticize like many forum users do. It's simple truth : If ED doesn't want to spend time on CA which is something that I really understand as DCS is a flight sim, perhaps for some very motivated modders could it be considered to allow some limited access in order to try to improve things and ED keeps what it wants. This is all.

 

Again I don't get the mentality of some people here who nearly insult modders work because it is modding and so it wouldn't be sometimes some professionnal led work. I perfectly know that such behavior would not be tolerated toward ED products, but toward people who spend thousands of hours on their free time and share the result, it seems to be normal.

 

Anyway, there is no point in staying here. You owe nothing to modders, this is why the modding section is the most visited section of these forums after the inputs...............

Edited February 22, 2020 by dimitriov

Yeah sure. Still CA GUI probably is the worst RTS GUI ever done in a videogame but costs more than most RTS.

 

If you do something, do it well, noone ever asked for a tank simulation of DCS, but if you want to go arcade, then do a good arcade job, not a half done work. If you don't want to touch it anymore, at least let motivated people more freedom to improve it. It's not a critic to criticize like many forum users do. It's simple truth : If ED doesn't want to spend time on CA which is something that I really understand as DCS is a flight sim, perhaps for some very motivated modders could it be considered to allow some limited access in order to try to improve things and ED keeps what it wants. This is all.

 

 

Limited access can require ED implement interios cockpits on vehicles and systems into vehicles as a aircrafts, a implement with them can require insert them into actual dlls. I remember some years ago, Wags talk about M-1 tank info for a "test bed" but nothing more was talked about them.

 

Not sure if the future RTS dynamic campaign can improve them.

 

Waiting about see if improvements with the Supercarrier and the diferent "cockpits" (LSO / Briefing room / Air Boss) will coming on that "sea" module....

 

Enviado desde mi RNE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

Edited February 23, 2020 by Silver_Dragon