Really struggling with throttle control in Case 1

I've recently started spending more time with the F/A-18 I've owned for ages but not flown much, and decided the best way to get to know the plane and have fun was some carrier ops. However, all I got was a lot of frustration and a couple of hours of going around and around and never catching a wire (plus hitting the back of the ship a few times). Now, I'm not a carrier landing expert by any means but I can reliably get the F-14 down in a messy but recognizable Case 1.

The Hornet however comes apart for me when trying to set descent rate. I'm downwind, dirty, trimmed to AoA and then the problem starts. I get +/-1000fpm descent rate variations with what feel like tiny throttle adjustments, and there's so much lag in the descent rate response to throttle input (both accelerating and decelerating) that I find it impossible to not get into a cycle of overcorrecting. The plane feels so floaty and gives me nothing to judge a throttle response by. I got to a point where I can bounce my way around the finals turn at about the right altitude, but when I roll out into the groove and need to change throttle setting again, I either soar over the ship or sink below deck level. I can't settle the descent rate in such a short time window and any attempt at last minute corrections are disastrous.

I thought it might be my control setup, but I have a Thrustmaster TWCS which has a very long and smooth travel, which should be good for making small adjustments.

I do have similar issues in the Tomcat but nowhere near as bad (I trapped fine second go while being really out of practice). Maybe the engines respond faster, or the inertia of the heavier plane makes it less bouncy. Also the F-14 lands with the airbrakes out, and has DLC, both of which are a huge help.

I expect most of this is "practice until you get it" and that's fair enough. But I wanted to see if there's something obvious I might be doing wrong, or something I can do in control setup to make my life easier while trying to learn this.

Try quickly adding or reducing throttle then quickly put it back where it was.

As you say, practice will be the best route to improvement, but maybe try "walking the throttles" to get finer thrust control. In other words, alternate movement of the levers and don't move both levers at the same time.

I still struggle the most with this part of the approach, especially the transition to onspeed, but I am getting there.

Oh, and if you haven't already discovered it, go get Banklers Case 1 training mission. That sets you up a few miles behind the carrier, for f14 or f18, and scores your attempts. That'll show you how much all of that practice is paying off.

Throttle should be constantly moving, if your throttle is sitting still for any length of time you're doing it wrong. Constant small adjustments, put some on, take it off immediately. Take a little off, put it back on immediately. Don't wait for the jet to respond, if you wait for the jet to respond it's too late and you'll now be low/high.

The concept of "take a little off, put a little back on" is really important for fine throttle control. you have to think a few steps ahead of what the jet's going to do, if you keep the throttle moving in small steps back and forth you can make fine adjustments without any extreme swings either way. It's a tough concept to get used to.

If you watch any videos of IRL Case1, you'll see them constantly moving their throttles back and forth. So it's not just a DCS thing.

I consider myself OK in CASE I in the Hornet, but I also oscillate (not as much) sometimes, only when I forget to constantly keep the throttles moving.

If you have split throttles, make continuous small adjustments and corrections and constantly walk the throttles with the back of your palm, as Greyman says. I have the TM Warthog throttle and I've set it to the lowest friction, I found that it works for me better that way.

Also, the Hornet is far lighter than the Tomcat. It can balloon pretty easily, especially if you're coming in light.

The trick as other poster said above is "walking the throttle", and i mean really constantly. It is strange as first but is the only way to get very tiny increment or decrements of speed.

So basically, if you want to decrease speed you'll start to "dance" the throttle down and up, down and up, down and up, so that your down movement is slightly larger than your up movement if that makes sense.

In this plan you will never keep the throttle in a fixed position, but it will be constantly moving, while the joystick on the other hand is barely moving, so its basical different to how i was used to land F15 or F16 in my simming years. It needs practice but is not so hard after a while.

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I find the experience is that I don't add throttle just to control the descent rate, but also the control the aircraft pitch. That's probably what's not going on, but the mentality I find keeps me moving the throttles a lot.

As an example, we are high and I need to increase my descent rate.

I pull the throttle, I keep pulling the throttle until I see the nose start to come down. Once the nose starts to come down, I add throttle in until the nose pitch rate stabilizes, then look for my desired rate of descent/glide path (most likely visually.. i.e. not looking at any numerical value on the HUD) as I approach my desired rate/path I add more power, I keep adding power until I see the nose start to rise, I adjust my power to control the pitch rate of the aircraft, and reduce power until the aircraft maintains the same pitch.. and I am now on my desired glidepath or rate of descent.

I suggest keeping the tail hook retracted and intentionally bolter. This trains you to add power, not expect a trap, and gives you more passes then having to go through the catapult process. Keep the CARRER/FIELD switch in CARRIER and just let the indexer flash.

It is tricky to get used to. As has been said you have to stay ahead of it. If you wait until the engines respond, it's too late.

If it will make you feel any better. I believe Mover (real Hornet pilot) said the engines feel sluggish compared to the real ones.

Also, there is an auto throttle that will hold AOA but isn't working yet.

Instead of trying to do a Case I... just fly dirty, trimmed on speed AOA and make 30 degree turns trying to stay at the same altitude. This will teach you how she responds.

Oh god yeah, at least I'm better than the ATC, that just takes the jet for a bucking bronco ride followed by a swim :D

Thank you very much for the feedback, I will practice constant throttle movement like that because indeed I have not been doing it. I should probably do it in the Cat too but that seems more forgiving to ham-handed piloting (or at least has other tools to mitigate poor throttle management).

I don't have split throttles, but I do have my friction very low so hopefully I can practice and get used to this "always moving" technique. :)

Something someone mentioned I realised is one reason I feel very little feedback. "Throttle controls pitch", yes, because trim holds AoA. In the Cat, power changes require stick input to maintain AoA, so I get a feedback loop that helps my throttle management.

Practice really is the answer, and not thinking too much. I couldn't get this right for WEEKS of trying. The one day it suddenly just 'happened' and now I land without any issues every time without thinking about it. Little consolation at the moment I know , but you WILL get there eventually. Constantly moving throttle IS the key. Initially just constantly mess about with it on approach to see the effect. Eventually your muscle memory will take over for you .

... and then there's aerial refueling. :p

Instead of trying to do a Case I... just fly dirty, trimmed on speed AOA and make 30 degree turns trying to stay at the same altitude. This will teach you how she responds.

This is great advice that not enough people take!

Getting the aircraft trimmed on speed with the gear and flaps down flying straight and level at 800 or 600ft will give you a lot of practice at controlling the aircraft.

Highly recommended!

Yeah I really should do that too. I thought about it but I don't have a lot of spare time to fly so I thought I'd pick it up as I go along in the pattern. Worked for others but guess the Hornet needs more muscle memory training first.

Also keep practicing, it is a quickly perishable skill. We train once a week as a squad and even then you can see deteriorating skill levels at Case 1, if you do it regularly though it quickly comes back.

I've only just started a week ago. The constant move of throttle made a huge difference for me.

How do you turn without stick input? Use Ailerons trim? Is that how a real pilot would do it?

I've only just started a week ago. The constant move of throttle made a huge difference for me.

 

How do you turn without stick input? Use Ailerons trim? Is that how a real pilot would do it?

Use the stick to turn. First of all the flight control system is not finished and will hopefully get tweaked in "near" future. For practice, like one of the previous posters stated, you can control descent with throttle without making huge stick movements in longitudinal axis (up/down).

Once you have the feel for that try practicing transitions to landing mode in the carrier break. This is when the unfinished part of FCS comes into play - ballooning. You have to fight it with substantial amount of forward stick until you slow down then trim and start adding power to maintain a steady descent from 800 to 600 feet. Start adding more power to stop descent before hitting 600 feet, always be ahead of the plane. Once you settle then the seesawing starts with the throttle. You have to use the stick to turn. Don't worry about rudders. FCS is supposed to coordinate the turn for you:smilewink:

A couple of things that work for me:

1. As someone else mentioned trying holding the onspeed A0A and just fly straight and level.

2. As previously mentioned you will be constantly moving those throttles. You have to accept there is no one setting

3. The trick is to reverse the throttle once the plane starts reacting. For example if you add throttle to go up, once the jet starts moving up then return the throttle back to its original position or close to it. You are constantly doing these corrections. After a LOT of practice it sort of becomes second nature and you don't think about it as much.

Keep in mind that IRL carrier pilots do around 300 practice landings before they get to try it on the boat.

Use the stick to turn. .......You have to use the stick to turn. Don't worry about rudders.

thanks, thats what I thought, but the above linked video was claimed to be no stick...however...

With differential thrust. Of course that's not how they fly it irl but it's a great practice.

ah ok thanks. Won't happen with me then as I don't have a split throttle.

You can see at this video how much pilot works with throttle on final.

 

thats a cool video. Glad to see it done in real life :)

From what some people are saying, I think I was making life harder for myself by trying straight up to fly it without any pitch input on the stick. Sounds like this is more advanced technique? Is it OK for now to let the AoA vary slightly so I can use stick input as well as throttles to help maintain my glide path?

I wouldn't recommend that. The FCS tries to give you the trimmed AoA, so you will be fighting the plane all the time and you're going to develop a bad habit. That way I think it will be harder in the long run to get this technique right. Real navy pilots train hundreds of landings before going to the boat. It is just hard.

From what some people are saying, I think I was making life harder for myself by trying straight up to fly it without any pitch input on the stick. Sounds like this is more advanced technique? Is it OK for now to let the AoA vary slightly so I can use stick input as well as throttles to help maintain my glide path?

Only throttle and ailerons.

Just something else to add: your bank angle affects your rate of descent. This effect is most noticeable when rolling into/out of turns (e.g. nose drop when rolling into a turn), but it also means that when in a turn, you should aim to hold a steady bank angle to make managing your descent rate easier.

Alrighty, no pitch input it is. Damn FBW :music_whistling:sometimes I feel it doing stuff for you hinders the feeling of what you should be doing.

Just something else to add: your bank angle affects your rate of descent. This effect is most noticeable when rolling into/out of turns (e.g. nose drop when rolling into a turn), but it also means that when in a turn, you should aim to hold a steady bank angle to make managing your descent rate easier.

Yeah, the roll-out into the groove is by far the hardest part because of this.