Jet tricky to fly on AOA recently....

Hi, I have not been able to devote the time I would like to this lately, ( Unfortunately...) but jumped in for a few carrier landing practices the other night.

I had real problems flying the jet when trying to minimise stick input and just use the throttle. kept getting massively behind myself and the jet also seemed to pitch up massively after speed brakes deployed and flaps set to full at around 150 knots......

Has something changed? I dont recall it being such a handful the last few times a few weeks back....

rgds, mark

since its EA, the FM is constantly being adjusted based on feedback from various users and real Hornet pilots.

check the change log for notes.

Also, why are you deploying your speed brake that slow? Full flaps + gear down should be creating enough drag to keep you slow. Pretty much need 80%+ engine power to keep it flying.

Hi, I have not been able to devote the time I would like to this lately, ( Unfortunately...) but jumped in for a few carrier landing practices the other night.

 

I had real problems flying the jet when trying to minimise stick input and just use the throttle. kept getting massively behind myself and the jet also seemed to pitch up massively after speed brakes deployed and flaps set to full at around 150 knots......

 

Has something changed? I dont recall it being such a handful the last few times a few weeks back....

 

rgds, mark

I personaly when needed, use Speed Brake to get me to 250 kts, avrg speed to drop down gear and flaps, which, by droping, automaticly brings down the speed break, after that it's up to you to properly trim your aircraft to the speed you are flying and throttle rocking to keep on the Rate of descent you want to be or fly level. In other workds my speed breakes once reacing 250 kts, stays in, well until touch down if landing on land based airfield. But if you keep playing witht he speed break once around 150 kts by bringing him up and down, you will indeed have AoA changes as you keep changing the aircrafts dynamic, which at that speed, should remain the same for constant on speed config..... i think.

Thanks, I should clarify, I was not deploying the brake at 150kts, rather, at around 250 - 300, to bring me down to around 150, then retracted it....

I see there are a couple of threads on flying the AOA, will study those.

I will say though that its very difficult to use trim instead of the stick to pitch the jet up and down.....cause and effect seem too far apart for me.....

I will keep trying!!

Thanks, I should clarify, I was not deploying the brake at 150kts, rather, at around 250 - 300, to bring me down to around 150, then retracted it....

 

I see there are a couple of threads on flying the AOA, will study those.

 

I will say though that its very difficult to use trim instead of the stick to pitch the jet up and down.....cause and effect seem too far apart for me.....

 

I will keep trying!!

You don't need to retract the speed brake. With the speed brake out, once you reach 250 knots, put the gear down and full flaps, the speed brake will retract on it's own.

I will say though that its very difficult to use trim instead of the stick to pitch the jet up and down.....cause and effect seem too far apart for me.....

That's not the idea. Trimming is so the aircraft maintains a specific speed. Lots of power will make you climb, a specific amount of intermediate power will keep you level, and less power will make you descend... all at the same speed for which the aircraft is trimmed.

Note: Upon changing power setting, the immediate effect is on speed followed very soon after by a change in pitch to reach a new flight equilibrium at trimmed speed.

If you need to keep the VVI on the horizon while trimming, you can and should use pitch input until the equilibrium is reached. This requires a little practice and experience. In other words, without pitch input, your VVI will move towards the E-bracket. With pitch input to stabilize the VVI, the E-bracket will move towards the VVI.

Good luck.

Thanks, I should clarify, I was not deploying the brake at 150kts, rather, at around 250 - 300, to bring me down to around 150, then retracted it....

 

I see there are a couple of threads on flying the AOA, will study those.

 

I will say though that its very difficult to use trim instead of the stick to pitch the jet up and down.....cause and effect seem too far apart for me.....

 

I will keep trying!!

You shouldnt be trying to use trim to bring the nose up and down for actual flight changes. Once flaps and gear are down you should be applying trim to put the VV in the E bracket which sets your AoA. You can use pitch with the stick while doing this if you need to but only as a means of keeping the VV near the horizon while speed continues to come down and the plane comes under control of the throttle for altitude. Once the VV is near the E you should be ending all pitch input from the stick. Trim till the VV is in the center of the E bracket and then applying throttle will raise the E bracket and the VV (which is now essentially attached to it) and lowering power will drop the E and the VV.

I really hate referring to it as VV as I think people confuse that sometimes as the stationary watermark which looks like a W. Make sure you understand the difference between the VV (velocity vector) and the watermark. For all intents and purposes the watermark can be ignored.

Its important that you avoid moving the throttle to extremes. Going into AB or going all the way to idle will end up forcing you to chase steady flight and you'll be up and down like a roller coaster. Once you light afterburners the plane will start to accelerate and climb very rapidly and the only way to halt it will be a drastic reduction in power which will then cause the opposite as the plane rapidly sinks. Then you'll feel the need to go to AB again to respond to it. If you DO have to make a drastic throttle movement then you need to think ahead about CATCHING the inevitable response before it happens and dont fall into the trap of RESPONDING to whats happening. It helps me to literally imagine a ball falling as the speed drops. I dont want to wait for the ball to just slap into my hand all the way down at the floor. Once the ball is tossed up I instead raise my hand back up higher to meet the ball as it descends and gently lower my hand as the ball lands in it to cushion the catch and then gently increase it again to level. That pretty closely mirrors the movements of my throttle hand. Once its steady then all it takes is small movements up and down to point the VV where you want it. Always catching, never responding.

1. Make the flat break at 1:05. I prefer a steady 1.7-2.0 G as opposed to often prescribed G @ 1% of speed. I find it more consistent and I break around 1.5 nm off the bow. I find it a comfortable range to get on aoa on the downwind without rushing.

2. @ 1:20 I drop flaps, gear and apply a couple of second of nose up trim while still in the turn. This puts me close to trimmed up for on speed aoa as soon as I level off. After this point I no longer apply any pitch to the aircraft via the stick. All pitch/altitude changes are done via throttle. Can verify by control inputs and trim amount by watching the control input indicator on the bottom left. I make a few small trim adjustments to get the VV centered up in the E and a little course correction to establish proper offset from the BRC. Then steady up a little high and climbing just before the turn.

3.Enter the final turn @ 2:25. Through the turn I adjust roll a bit to try to come around in line with the deck and adjust throttle to keep my altitude ( VV ) right about where I need it to be. I like to go in a little high as its better to be high on approach than low. Safer and easier to correct. So you'll see me level off in the groove with a high ball and glide slope is adjusted the rest of the way in using throttle only.

4. Finish up with what I'd guess to be a fair, 3 wire trap. High at the start, A little left all the way in.

Edit: Forgot to add. When entering the 2 g flat break I deploy full speed brake and leave it out till it auto retracts when flaps and gear are deployed. If you dont do this you wont make the turn in the same diameter and it’ll take so long to reach 250kts to drop gear and flaps that you’ll be in a rush to steady up on speed for aoa.

Also that once I’m steady in the E bracket on the downwind I make no further trim adjustments. From there in the only flight inputs are roll and throttle.

Not my best approach but literally just hopped into DCS, hit record, made a trap, edited and uploaded.

Thanks everyone who replied. Just quickly( While I carry on practicing..) :

I am finding once I get the VV in the bracket, I am often pulled back on the stick, to get it there....how do I then transition to no stick inputs, as obviously, when I release the stick, the jets attitude then changes....

I have tried applying some trim once the VV is in the bracket, but find its really easy to lost track of what trim is applied. Whats the best and easiest way to recentre IE back to zero the trim?

Cheers

Thanks everyone who replied. Just quickly( While I carry on practicing..) :

 

I am finding once I get the VV in the bracket, I am often pulled back on the stick, to get it there....how do I then transition to no stick inputs, as obviously, when I release the stick, the jets attitude then changes....

 

I have tried applying some trim once the VV is in the bracket, but find its really easy to lost track of what trim is applied. Whats the best and easiest way to recentre IE back to zero the trim?

 

Cheers

You shouldn't be pulling to get into the bracket. If I'm pulling on the stick with the gear and flaps out it's to maintain altitude as I add a little power and bring in the trim to hit 600 feet. I'm pulling on the stick to fly the plane, I'm trimming to get into the bracket if that makes sense.

To answer your question how do you transition... as you add nose up trim you should be relaxing the back pressure on the stick until you're on-speed and don't require pitch inputs. It's kinda like driving a manual transmission car. As you ease off the clutch you ease into the accelerator.

Afaik there isn't a way to recenter the trim. You shouldn't really be concerned with the actual value or how much is applied. It's a tool to get on-speed. Slow = nose down, fast= nose up.

Thanks everyone who replied. Just quickly( While I carry on practicing..) :

 

I am finding once I get the VV in the bracket, I am often pulled back on the stick, to get it there....how do I then transition to no stick inputs, as obviously, when I release the stick, the jets attitude then changes....

 

I have tried applying some trim once the VV is in the bracket, but find its really easy to lost track of what trim is applied. Whats the best and easiest way to recentre IE back to zero the trim?

 

Cheers

If you are pulling back on the stick then you dont actually have the VV trimmed to the E. You are replacing trim w stick input. If you are still pulling back on the stick after applying trim to keep it in the bracket then you need more nose up trim. So ease off the stick as you apply more nose up (pitch up) trim. If after letting go of the stick the VV climbs above the E you have too much trim. Counter with nose down trime but DONT try to push it back with the stick unless you absolutely have to to avoid crashing. If when you let go of the stick the VV drops below the E add pitch up trim but again dont go yanking on the stick again unless youre about to eat waves. As long youre remotely close to trimmed and around 800ft when you startvthe downwind then you have plenty of time to steady up and use throttle to adjust your altitude. If you dont feel like you have enough time then extend farther out past he bow of the carrier before your flat break. SH will be trying to break right as they cross the bow but its perfectly acceptable when youre learning to extend as far as 4nm before the break and thatll give you loads of time on the down wind.

Should be gradually reducing stick input as you apply trim. Once it is trimmed properly it will settle and stay in the E bracket. Your doing a few things at once. At around 130-140 kts the plane should have only a gradual climb or descent. So your watching your speed (just as a guidline, once in the ballpark youre flying in response to Vv movement and shouldnt be trying to base anything on an exact speed.) And youre watching how the VV is responding to throttle input. If throttle is too high then the VV will be trying to climb high over the horizon. If its too low it’ll be dropping below the horizon along with your altitude.

If the VV is above the E you need to add nose down trim. If its below the E (WITHOUT applying stick pitch, you gotta let that thing go a little or you cant tell what you need to do) then you need to add nose up trim. The closer it gets to being attached to the middle of the bracket the more stable the plane will become.

So youre trying to balance the VV’s movement in relation to the horizon via throttle and trying to attach the E bracket to the VV via trim.

I think of it kinda like playing piano. Where youre reading one line of music and playing that with one hand while at the same time youre reading another line of music and playing it with the other. On the downwind those 2 things are altitude and matching up the E. Once you enter the final turn then the E bracket is already sorted and now with one eye youre watching your roll angle and adjusting with the stick and with the other eye at the same time youre watching the VV and making sure its not dropping too far below or rising above the horizon and controlling it with your throttle. If you take your eyes away from either one to focus too intently on the other then the plane can get away from you very easily. It actually helps me to not even let my eyes focus on one particular thing. Just a blank stare towards bottom left of my hud and watching the VV movement and roll movement without actually looking directly at or focusing on either of them. Once you level off in the grove thens its all about just using tiny bits of roll to stay on line and throttling to aim the VV up and down.

Thanks, I had a pretty good practice and once I had managed to get the VV in the bracket really had a good session using the throttle to control the pitch.

The difficult part is getting the VV in the bracket, practice will help!

Thanks again for all your detailed help, very useful.

Rgds, mark

I don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet, but I noticed in the carrier pattern between 30,000-32,000lbs gross weight, 11-12° nose-up trim seems to get me on speed every time.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet, but I noticed in the carrier pattern between 30,000-32,000lbs gross weight, 11-12° nose-up trim seems to get me on speed every time.

Yes, I figured with my average return weights of 32-34k I usually trim to 9° first (checking in the CHKLST page) and then fine tune from there. Works pretty well as a workaround until we get the readout of the trimmed AoA on the HUD (if we will get it all provided it is part of the software suite our Lot 20 hornet is based on).

Dont forget max trap weight is 33k. Over that and you should be dumping fuel. The plane really does feel squirrely above proper weight and will want to drop even faster.

Hi, so the checklist page on the MFD will show the current trim in degrees?

Out of interest, what does "un trim" the surfaces?

I remember from flying GA planes in other sims, most have a button to reset the trim to zero.....Why would you not have this in the jet?

Put the flaps in auto

Dont forget max trap weight is 33k. Over that and you should be dumping fuel. The plane really does feel squirrely above proper weight and will want to drop even faster.

Thanks! I always forget about that.

Hi, so the checklist page on the MFD will show the current trim in degrees?

 

Out of interest, what does "un trim" the surfaces?

 

I remember from flying GA planes in other sims, most have a button to reset the trim to zero.....Why would you not have this in the jet?

Checklist will show you stabilizer (pitch) trim. For yaw or roll trim you’ll have to check the fcs page.

If you press and hold T/O trim it will reset all trim inputs. I find I have to do this after using roll trim when dealing with asymetrical loads otherwise I can never quite get it centered again. It does take time though if flaps are up because trim responds more slowly in that configuration. Flaps down it should work more quickly. You can verify it by watching your control surface inputs on the fcs page. Roll trim is pretty hard to spot flaps up because even when trimmed just a little you can see the plane rolling but the asymetry on the fcs page wont reflect a numerical difference till youve reached a high level of trim (roll). Pitch (stab) trim is pretty easy to spot ussually.

Also, the control input display (right CTL Enter) will show you stab trim in a visual format but from what I’ve seen does not show yaw or roll trim.