[REPORTED]CB's for Battery and Generator disconnect after take-off (MP)

Why did they use a flywheel, instead of a potent starter like in the Mustang (and Spitfire)?

 

Fox

Because the Merlin is a relatively small engine, with "only" 27.5 litres. The Merlins in the Hurricane were started by a handcrank and a flywheel. Early Spits too.

For comparison:

DB 601 33.9ltrs

DB 605 35.7ltrs

BMW 801 41.8ltrs

P&W R-2800 45.9ltrs

Most bigger engines had fly wheels, especially the radials.

The P&W R-2800 in the F4U and the P-47 used a fly wheel, Wright Cyclone etc. It was common.

Because the Merlin is a relatively small engine, with "only" 27.5 litres. The Merlins in the Hurricane were started by a handcrank and a flywheel. Early Spits too.

For comparison:

DB 601 33.9ltrs

DB 605 35.7ltrs

BMW 801 41.8ltrs

P&W R-2800 45.9ltrs

 

Most bigger engines had fly wheels, especially the radials.

The P&W R-2800 in the F4U and the P-47 used a fly wheel, Wright Cyclone etc. It was common.

Do you really think it is possible to build a electrical starter big enough to start a 27.4L engine, but no way to build one for a 34L engine?

This is no answer to my question.

A possible answer for my question starts with: Kurt and his team thought ...

e.g.

a) its cheaper

b) more robust

c) no one thought about it, they just evolved what they already used and knew (e.g. look at the first Me262 prototypes V1-V4 and its landing-gear) / Betriebsblind

d) using a flywheel with a small starter saves copper, and copper was a rare resource

e) using a flywheel that continues to rotate with the engine smoothens the engine´s run

f) etc.

Fox

It is one of many possible answers. I don't think that there is just one true answer to this.

Another on you've given already.

They wanted to build as light as possible aircraft.

Fox

As a former aircraft mechanic I can say that this is one of the most important considerations in any aircraft. Build anything as light as possible without sacrificing safety and function.

I never said it was impossible to build an electrical starter strong enough to crank a 35+ liter engine but it was rarely done, even by nations with plenty of supplies of ore and other materials.

The bigger the engine you want to crank, the more mass you have to move and the heavier the starter gets you need. The start-up current will increase as well, so you need a stronger batterie. All that adds to the weight, no one wants that.

As it was common, I think the fly wheel was just the more practical solution.

And btw. looking at the german developments early in the war or before, they rarly cared about rescources. One example is the 1942 Porsche Tiger (VK 45.01 (P)) with its petrol electric drive. Two petrol engines, a generator (500kVA) and two big electrical motors (230kW each). That's alot of copper!

Generator CB pops out when switching Weapon Master to ON

I had already reported this issue in the context of CB's popping out when raising the gear, but it got buried in all kinds of discussion. I therefore created a new thread, and created a video on Youtube to demonstrate the problem. Hopefully I will not get anybody saying that it is a feature rather than a bug.

The problem occurs in every mission starting on the ground. Some people might not notice it because the Anton keeps going for quite a while with the generator CB out. Here is the link to the video on Youtube:

PS: somebody said that this happens because I switched the Outer Wings Guns ON to quickly after Weapon Master ON, but that's not correct. The CB popped out right after Weapon Master ON and I had not even touched the switch for Outer Guns.

Are you sure that this is bug.

Why anyone would program poping up any circuit breaker by accident ??

I had already reported this issue in the context of CB's popping out when raising the gear, but it got buried in all kinds of discussion. I therefore created a new thread, and created a video on Youtube to demonstrate the problem. Hopefully I will not get anybody saying that it is a feature rather than a bug.

The problem occurs in every mission starting on the ground. Some people might not notice it because the Anton keeps going for quite a while with the generator CB out. Here is the link to the video on Youtube:

 

 

PS: somebody said that this happens because I switched the Outer Wings Guns ON to quickly after Weapon Master ON, but that's not correct. The CB popped out right after Weapon Master ON and I had not even touched the switch for Outer Guns.

I just tested it the way you did. I can confirm this behavior.

But now comes the interesting part.

I did the following tests with the results:

1. On ground, engine still out, running on battery only, necessary CBs for engine start in, outer cannons off, weapon master on -> No CB pops out

2. On ground, engine running @~1400rpm, all CB in (except fug25 in the aft panel), outer cannons off, weapon master on -> No CB pops out

3. On ground, engine running @2000rpm, all CB in (except fug25 in the aft panel), outer cannons off, weapon master on -> Generator CB pops out

The Generator´s CB is too weak to handle the load. As soon as the engine´s rpm is high enough for the generator to take over from the battery you will have the Generator´s CB pop out when you load the weapons, even without the outer cannons.

On the other hand, the battery´s CB can handle the load of arming the weapons, but inner weapons first, then the outer ones.

I added the tracks.

Open Beta 2.5.5.34644

Fox

Are you sure that this is bug.

Why anyone would program poping up any circuit breaker by accident ??

Circuit Breakers are supposed to break the cirrcuit under certain overload conditions. For the kind of loads we have with undercarriage drive and weapons, the CB's would typically have two kinds of overload detection:

1. Thermal (bi-metal): this will respond based on the amount and duration of overload. Reaction is slow.

2. Electromagnetic: this will respond for high overload like when there is a short-circuit. Reaction is instantaneous, but only if the load current is a multiple of the rated load.

I'm under the impression that the EM element of the CB's is modelled with exaggerated sensitivity.

Same here. Cannons do not fire in quick mission and in mission editor

Same here. Cannons do not fire in quick mission and in mission editor

The Generator and Battery CB are out in airstart or ground hot. You need to push them in. Then reload the inner guns first. After that reload the outer guns. Check the gen cb after that. It pops out, when the generator feeds the electrical bus, and you load the weapons.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=246642

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4010960&postcount=30

Fox

Well I've just discovered today that the Generator CB will pop in single player too. It reliably popped any time I turned on the two gun switches, then popped once again mid firing sequence.

Well I've just discovered today that the Generator CB will pop in single player too. It reliably popped any time I turned on the two gun switches, then popped once again mid firing sequence.

Maby we are missing something here, maby some CB should be off, maby turning all CBs will make generator CB pop up eventualy,

Well I've just discovered today that the Generator CB will pop in single player too. It reliably popped any time I turned on the two gun switches, then popped once again mid firing sequence.

Yes, I have reported that in a separate thread. The Generator CB systematically pops up when you activate the Weapon Master switch. Plus, it pops up when you fire a very long burst.

Maby we are missing something here, maby some CB should be off, maby turning all CBs will make generator CB pop up eventualy,

You mean the pilot was not supposed to switch his weapons ON? Come on, Graf Spee!

No, it's the developer(s) who missed something - or maybe overdid something.

The FW-190 was known to be a very robust and resilient plane. With the behaviours we are seeing here, it would not have been fit for the rough conditions it was to operate in.

You mean the pilot was not supposed to switch his weapons ON? Come on, Graf Spee!

 

No, it's the developer(s) who missed something - or maybe overdid something.

The FW-190 was known to be a very robust and resilient plane. With the behaviours we are seeing here, it would not have been fit for the rough conditions it was to operate in.

Yes, i agree its developer who overdid something like engine in fw190 till recent patch and engine in p-51

i know where is this engine problems come from,Russia got extremly garbage aviation fuel, most of leand leased planes had lots off issues with this fuel.

Where in England spit was running fine in russia engine get blow to pices in seconds.

Since ED leech data from russian trials, no wonder that engines running high boosts are blowing apart, where german planes worked fine with that fuel.

Mystery solved why db605 run full power for ages and v-1650-7 run full power for 5 minutes and get blow to pieces

Guys,

I noticed that the problem is when the Engine is not hot enough. When the engine is bellow that mark close to 50C, the CBs pull. After the engine is warmed up, above 50C or so, no problem with the generator nor the battery and you may turn on the weapons.

My two cents!

All the best,

Sydy

My temp was just above 50C when I had my generator pop repeatedly.

Guys,

I noticed that the problem is when the Engine is not hot enough. When the engine is bellow that mark close to 50C, the CBs pull. After the engine is warmed up, above 50C or so, no problem with the generator nor the battery and you may turn on the weapons.

My two cents!

All the best,

Sydy

I saw your post and tried immediately. Cold start, shut the radiator flaps, kept engine running at 1200 to 1500 RPM and waited very patiently (thank god it was not an alarm start!) until the temperature indication was at 50 °C. Then took off, managed to raise the undercarriage (had to push that CB back in once) and flew for a short time. Then activated the master arm switch. Immediately the generator CB popped out.

So much for your two cents...

Upon reviewing my VR footage, the CB seemed to pop out if I flipped the lower switch first. If I flipped the upper switch first, waited until the red lights came on (which took a while), then flipped the lower switch last, the CB stayed down.

Until I fired a long burst and it popped out again.

The lower switch enables the outer wing guns. I never even activated that switch at all in my tests. The Generator CB pops out when I activate the upper (Master Arm) switch.

I saw your post and tried immediately. Cold start, shut the radiator flaps, kept engine running at 1200 to 1500 RPM and waited very patiently (thank god it was not an alarm start!) until the temperature indication was at 50 °C. Then took off, managed to raise the undercarriage (had to push that CB back in once) and flew for a short time. Then activated the master arm switch. Immediately the generator CB popped out.

So much for your two cents...

I knew my two cents did not worth much... :cry:

This has been solved. take a look in the bugs section.

it is not a bug, but rather an operating error from pilot :)

Hi guys, good news.

I’ve been flying the Anton quite a bit lately because I am converting a campaign to it.

I managed to find a solution. What I can figure out of it is that the generator is simulated as quite weak. Let me tell what’s been working to me so far. I am sorry if this is old for any of you.

Make the cockpit preparation as usual. Do not arm any gun at this point, but you may close CBs P80, P1 and P2.

Perform the engine start;

Remember to turn on the PITOT and to maintain at lease 1.200rpm

Set flaps for takeoff and open the gear cover.

Perform the takeoff.

Once with airborne and positive climb, command Gear up. Maintain speed bellow 250km/h. (Up to 300km/h although wrong it will retract, but reduce the engine!)

Observe the gear lights from green to red. Red means it’s locked up. Check wing gear indications pins retracted as well.

Once you see Undercarriage red lights, command flap up.

Once you see zero on the wing you may accelerate.

Once stablished on a safe climb, command Gun Safety Switch 1 (the top one for the cowling guns) to ON (up position). Now WAIT!!

Wait for at least 4 gun red lights to come on, indicating they are ready. Eventually all 6 will turn ON.

Once you see at least 4 gun red lights, command Gun Safety Switch II (wing cannons) to ON (up position).

Now command the stick safety switch to open.

Keep an eye on the PITOT light. If it goes our, GENERATOR CB tripped. Put it back in.

If you reduce too much power, GEN CB may trip as well.

Since I started doing it I only had the GEN CB tripped twice (in many many flights).

I wish you good luck. Soon I will publish a campaign with 10 missions for the 190 A-8.

All the best,

Sydy

Don't know why this isn't adressed, or if it even needs to be, but as Sydy said this probably happens because of the generator cutting out due to low engine RPM.

Why is this never addressed officially?

 

Every other issue brought up is marked as a either a bug or as a correct feature, but not this. This is just ignored and I don't get it.

 

Is it supposed to be there, is it a bug, is it something being looked into...?

Hi,

I think it was like that. I developed a solution and probably the generator was weak anyway.

Check The solution on this thread here.. I even made a small movie with a take off demonstration.

I hope it helps you.

All the best,

Sydy

This is all very ridiculous. The Dora doesn't suffer from any of this.

This is all very ridiculous. The Dora doesn't suffer from any of this.

I agree. In the absence of any response from the moderators I presume it will never be fixed, or one day we find it fixed without any change notice. I don't care any more. I have learned to handle it with these oddities and still enjoy its qualities as an attack aircraft.