Aim-7 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-16-2020, 04:56 AM   #1
gavagai
Senior Member
 
gavagai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In my house
Posts: 2,300
Default Aim-7

Not sure which is worse. This post or bumping an old one: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=232497

If I want to make a mission where the F-16 is downgraded, let me. Some F-16C have carried the Aim-7, just not ours...whatever. You don't have to play with me, right?
gavagai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 06:39 AM   #2
QuiGon
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 15,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
If I want to make a mission where the F-16 is downgraded, let me.
Then use Sidewinders only, which is historically correct as that was the only A-A armament of the Cold War F-16 (besides the gun). The USAF F-16 never recieved the AIM-7.

It has been discussed here in depth: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=274588
__________________
Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!


Last edited by QuiGon; 09-16-2020 at 06:41 AM.
QuiGon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 11:47 AM   #3
gavagai
Senior Member
 
gavagai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In my house
Posts: 2,300
Default

I don't care if it is historically accurate. It needs to be a thing for mission design.

I would make the same argument for rear-aspect ir missiles. Some of our fighters cannot downgrade to them.
gavagai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 01:53 PM   #4
Baco
Member
 
Baco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 932
Default

I Agree, stop with teh restriction son Loadouts, its bad enough that we have to work with just a few airframes.. you also constrain the loadouts? Wahy why does a little felñxibility threatens you so much? Specially when a downgrade is beiong asked for....

We are not All Us pilots. Maybe some of us wan t to fly as another countruy that did use AIM7 or a what if buy with downgraded armament...

Why force us to resort to MODs?
Baco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 02:35 PM   #5
Northstar98
Senior Member
 
Northstar98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: White Forest
Posts: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baco View Post
I Agree, stop with teh restriction son Loadouts
It's not a restriction per se, the aircraft we have in DCS literally can't fire it, as in it physically isn't wired up to employ the AIM-7.

The F-16C we have, as I understand it, is modelled on a specific aircraft variant, it is supposed to authentically represent that specific aircraft - that's the entire point. If that specific aircraft physically cannot employ the AIM-7 then IMO the DCS version shouldn't be able to employ it either. And when you factor that the DCS F-16C currently doesn't have things that it actually is compatible with and capable of using, well...

You guys make it sound like we're artificially restricting things just to spite you or because we have a false superiority complex. Fact of the matter is, the whole point of DCS is to have aircraft and weapons be as accurate to reality as possible.

When it comes to it, here's how it should work.
  1. Can the specific aircraft employ it & was it used? If yes, then obviously yes, it should be included if feasible to do so.
  2. Can the specific aircraft physically employ the weapon as is, but the weapon is out of service or otherwise unused by the specific operator? Again, in my opinion, it should be present if feasible, as the real aircraft can physically employ it, without modification.
  3. Is the weapon physically incompatible and/or did it come after the date the aircraft variant is modelled on? Then here is where I say no, the weapon doesn't fit the aircraft in terms of era, and/or the weapon is physically incompatible with the aircraft.

Here we have a case of number 3, the AIM-7 is physically incompatible with the aircraft ours is modelled after.

If our F-16C was compatible with the AIM-7, as in the avionics support it without modification and it is wired for it, then absolutely it should be present. If it isn't wired for it, and the avionics don't support it, then no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baco View Post
its bad enough that we have to work with just a few airframes.. you also constrain the loadouts? Wahy why does a little felñxibility threatens you so much?
I absolutely agree, having such few variants, and a limited number of aircraft is a pain in the arse, especially when as far as eras go nothing is comprehensive and it's all basically a pick 'n' mix. I absolutely get that.

I would love older aircraft and older variants; they better fit the current asset pool, they're more likely to have more documentation available on them, they were involved in more famous conflicts etc and to me personally, they have more character and I find are more fun. And both sides win.

That should be the solution here, development of older aircraft, exactly like what Heatblur are doing with the F-14A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baco View Post
We are not All Us pilots. Maybe some of us wan t to fly as another countruy that did use AIM7 or a what if buy with downgraded armament...
Yes I absolutely understand, I absolutely understand why people want weapons our current aircraft never used/not even capable of using, so they can represent a different aircraft - I get that, I'm not being snarky, I genuinely understand the frustration. The problem is, unlike liveries, or scenarios, it doesn't mandate changing the avionics to make it work.

It kind of all boils down to these 3 options.
  1. We develop an aircraft realistically based on a specific variant and potentially a compromise has to be made to the accuracy of certain scenarios.
  2. We develop an aircraft, but instead of compromising on the accuracy of the scenarios, we compromise on the accuracy of the aircraft, making more of an allowance for different scenarios, even if it fudges the accuracy of the aircraft.
  3. We have multiple variants that are appropriate to different eras and different scenarios, meaning we don't have to compromise the accuracy of the specific aircraft or the specific scenarios.

The difference between us, is not that we're hypersensitive to realism, ultimately you want the same thing, just for something different - you want to choose option 2 instead of option 1 whereas we're more interested in option 1 as that is really supposed to be the main selling point of DCS among other things.

That's it, we're more interested in the accuracy of the aircraft, whereas you're more interested in the accuracy of the scenario. We're both realism absolutists, just in different ways.

However, the solution to both our problems is option 3, but hardly anyone seems to go down that route...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baco View Post
Why force us to resort to MODs?
Ironically because basically, that's exactly what those other countries did IRL to get AIM-7 capability on their F-16s. The only F-16s that can are special modifications.
__________________
Modules I own: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, F-16CM, AJS-37, F-5E-3, MiG-21Bis, Ka-50, A-10C, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, P-47D, P-51D, FC3, MiG-15Bis, Yak-52, CA, C-101, Hawk
Terrains I own: SoH, The Channel, Syria

System (RIP my old PC): Dell XPS 15 9570 w/ Intel i7-8750H, NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti Max-Q, 16GB DDR4, 500GB Samsung PM871 SSD (upgraded with 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD)

VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro

Dreams: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/cHQdNq

Last edited by Northstar98; 09-17-2020 at 07:47 PM.
Northstar98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 02:52 PM   #6
gavagai
Senior Member
 
gavagai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In my house
Posts: 2,300
Default

Quote:
The F-16C we have is modelled on a specific variant, it is supposed to be authentically represent that specific variant, and that specific variant physically cannot employ the AIM-7. And when you factor in the fact that the F-16C currently doesn't have things that it actually is capable of using then it becomes pretty clear...
The authenticity is great. We all agree on that, but it was a programming choice to make it so specific.

There is another sim where, if we want to, my friends and I can load up the F16 with Aim-9Ps for furballing fun. Can't do that here. I don't get why half the users here seem to agree with that outcome when they would never have our gameplay choice imposed on their gameplay choice.
gavagai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 03:14 PM   #7
Northstar98
Senior Member
 
Northstar98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: White Forest
Posts: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
The authenticity is great. We all agree on that, but it was a programming choice to make it so specific.
I don't know why ED decided to model the DCS F-16 on that specific variant, presumably it was because it was the latest and greatest while still being feasible, which seems to be a bit of a theme. I doubt it was merely a programming choice that is causing the issue. Of course it could be that they it was a contract and as such which variant is constrained (somebody correct me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
There is another sim where, if we want to, my friends and I can load up the F16 with Aim-9Ps for furballing fun. Can't do that here. I don't get why half the users here seem to agree with that outcome when they would never have our gameplay choice imposed on their gameplay choice.
I've edited my post but it's exactly the same the other way round.

You want the 'scenarios' so to speak to be more realistic, because that allows more flexibility with the era, even if it fudges the accuracy of the aircraft.

The other side wants the aircraft to be more realistic, because that's what DCS is really about (the scenario is completely up to you, there aren't any restrictions apart from what theatre and assets are available), even if it means fudging the accuracy of the scenario.

The best option would be to have more aircraft variants so we don't have to make compromises to one thing or the other.

I would love to have accurate scenarios and I'd love to have accurate aircraft, adding different variants solves this dilemma, without having to resort to fudging the accuracy of one thing or the other.
__________________
Modules I own: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, F-16CM, AJS-37, F-5E-3, MiG-21Bis, Ka-50, A-10C, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, P-47D, P-51D, FC3, MiG-15Bis, Yak-52, CA, C-101, Hawk
Terrains I own: SoH, The Channel, Syria

System (RIP my old PC): Dell XPS 15 9570 w/ Intel i7-8750H, NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti Max-Q, 16GB DDR4, 500GB Samsung PM871 SSD (upgraded with 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD)

VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro

Dreams: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/cHQdNq

Last edited by Northstar98; 09-23-2020 at 07:04 AM.
Northstar98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 04:46 PM   #8
QuiGon
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 15,085
Default

Ok, so here we go again to discuss this all over again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavagai View Post
I don't care if it is historically accurate. It needs to be a thing for mission design.
I do care. I don't want Spitfires armed with AMRAAMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baco View Post
Why force us to resort to MODs?
Because this sim tries to resemble real aircraft and their capabilities. Mods can do whatever they want. That's why they're there!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northstar98 View Post
The best option would be to have more aircraft variants so we don't have to make compromises to one thing or the other.
This!
__________________
Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!


Last edited by QuiGon; 09-16-2020 at 04:50 PM.
QuiGon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 04:51 PM   #9
Tippis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGon View Post
I do care. I don't want Spitfires armed with AMRAAMs.
Have I got a LUA hack to show… ehm… not show you!
Tippis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 04:56 PM   #10
QuiGon
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 15,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Have I got a LUA hack to show… ehm… not show you!
Thanks, that's very kind of you as that would definitely give me eye cancer
__________________
Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

QuiGon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:02 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.