too early blackout when inverted?

Hi,

I'm just trying my hands on the DCS Spitfire model. After doing a few manouvers, I encountered a phenomenon: when inverted with the Spitfire, the blackout 'feature' seems to come at extremely small pitch movements, esp. when pushing the yoke - even on a small push, the screen is blacked out, and it won't return.

I wonder if this is a modelling issue?

Akos

Funilly enough, I was thinking the same thing. It feels like black out happens a lot more easily now than in the past. I'm sure something has changed on that since 2.5.5 was released.

Not sure which is more realistic though.

the strange thing is that in other cases (e.g. not inverted, or pull when inverted), it seems to be OK

the strange thing is that in other cases (e.g. not inverted, or pull when inverted), it seems to be OK

The body can withstand quite a bit more positive G's than negative which both of your examples are implying. That being said, yes, negative G's do seem to be pretty touchy. But if you watch the G meter, you will probably see that you are generating more negative G's then you perceive, thus resulting in the quick black out. This comes about because we can not actually feel what is going on, so we push/pull with abandon. In the real aircraft, you would feel that rush of blood to your head and back off.

We do not get much of a warning and having to watch the G meter is not the best solution. Maybe if they started the visual redout a bit sooner and dragged it out just a TOUCH longer, we would have something we could react off of.

The body can withstand quite a bit more positive G's than negative which both of your examples are implying. That being said, yes, negative G's do seem to be pretty touchy. But if you watch the G meter, you will probably see that you are generating more negative G's then you perceive, thus resulting in the quick black out. This comes about because we can not actually feel what is going on, so we push/pull with abandon. In the real aircraft, you would feel that rush of blood to your head and back off.

 

We do not get much of a warning and having to watch the G meter is not the best solution. Maybe if they started the visual redout a bit sooner and dragged it out just a TOUCH longer, we would have something we could react off of.

while it is true that one can take more positive G's than negative - your comment misses the essence of my post.

negative G's, while in straight & level flight (not inverted), seem to be handled fine. BUT, when inverted, and giving the yoke a slight push, there is an immediate blackout (note: not redout!) in the simulation. this seems to be a model error.

Right, but also realise, in neutral, inverted flight, you are starting off a -1 g instead of +1 G. Already behind the curve at the start of things. Does not take as much to get you to the blackout from that position.

Hi,

 

I'm just trying my hands on the DCS Spitfire model. After doing a few manouvers, I encountered a phenomenon: when inverted with the Spitfire, the blackout 'feature' seems to come at extremely small pitch movements, esp. when pushing the yoke - even on a small push, the screen is blacked out, and it won't return.

 

I wonder if this is a modelling issue?

 

 

Akos

Just to clarify - you're inverted and pushing on the stick?

Just to clarify - you're inverted and pushing on the stick?

correct

I did some tests in the Spitfire and was able to perform an outside loop (not the prettiest, but got it around). As long as I kept the negative G's around -3 or less, things were fine. If I pushed into the -3.5 or higher, the redout would start to kick in, though still quite controllable. Needed positive G to clear the red, though, then seemed a bit immune to the negative for a bit.

Now if I suddenly jabbed the stick forward while inverted especially, black out would occur quite suddenly. and stay that way since it locks you into that negative push. Not as much as the onset, but as I mentioned before, positive G's were needed to clear the condition.

Maybe check to see if your controller is spiking, causing more input than intended. This might account for your slight push generating a bigger input than you expected, causing the sudden blackout. Either that or you are pushing the stick forward to fast still.

it look like you were pushing stick to rapidly

any way those maneuvers bring no benefit in dogfight and can damage your engine too not mention that whole equipment on board may not be prepared for pushing that kind of negative G

like weapons etc

make sure that you have nice curvers for pitch on your controler spitfire is very sensitive in that departament

make sure that you have nice curvers for pitch on your controler spitfire is very sensitive in that departament

This.

 

We do not get much of a warning and having to watch the G meter is not the best solution. Maybe if they started the visual redout a bit sooner and dragged it out just a TOUCH longer, we would have something we could react off of.

IMHO the effect for the G-forces etc should be far more subtle (but effective) until the blackout. Now it is like you are playing with the 0.5-1G range when the effect comes and goes, while it should really be more effective at far sooner and start to generate the limitations by removing colors, changing breathing etc.

And IMHO it should be tied to the pilot career/history, so in multiplayer if you can maintain your pilot alive, you will benefit from a better G-force withstanding and if you die, you need to start from scratch and it means you suffer from G-forces far sooner than with long standing pilot.

IMHO the effect for the G-forces etc should be far more subtle (but effective) until the blackout. Now it is like you are playing with the 0.5-1G range when the effect comes and goes, while it should really be more effective at far sooner and start to generate the limitations by removing colors, changing breathing etc.

 

And IMHO it should be tied to the pilot career/history, so in multiplayer if you can maintain your pilot alive, you will benefit from a better G-force withstanding and if you die, you need to start from scratch and it means you suffer from G-forces far sooner than with long standing pilot.

it would not change my game play even a bit becouse im dying at every sortie :P

but i think G warm up is implemented in game so if you pull couple G before fight pilot become a little more resistant to G im not sure is it affecting peak G or is it affecting endurance of G

I love that you're all doubting my skills and observations (not)

I did some more tests since, and one doesn't need to be inverted to see this effect. the issue is only in Open Beta, but not in release. see some evidence here:

some movements with the release DCS, all seems to be fine:

then see what is happening in Open Beta:

it's the same movement, but pitch forward 'blacks out' immediately in the open beta

the interesting thing is that after that, there is no recovery, no matter how long you wait.

I love that you're all doubting my skills and observations (not)

 

I did some more tests since, and one doesn't need to be inverted to see this effect. the issue is only in Open Beta, but not in release. see some evidence here:

 

some movements with the release DCS, all seems to be fine:

 

 

then see what is happening in Open Beta:

 

 

it's the same movement, but pitch forward 'blacks out' immediately in the open beta

 

the interesting thing is that after that, there is no recovery, no matter how long you wait.

yes becouse pilot is getting brain stroke from excess blood pressure

no recovery from this injury

I watched those vids, you are pushing the stick quite quickly forward IMHO. The Spit is very sensitive to pitch movements as has been stated multiple times. If you do not want to black out, do not push the stick forward as quickly as you have. /shrug

this forum qualifies for me as one of the most useless forums on the planet :)

Because it doesn't tell you what you want to hear?

The real Spit has a very powerful elevator. Even in the real thing only 3/4" of stick travel was required to reach critical AoA. That is a tiny fraction of the overall stick travel.

Now scale that down to your itty bitty desktop gaming joystick.

See where this is going?

to summarize:

I provided an error description, with proof, that something works differently in DCS release and in Beta. this is fact, the videos also show: same yoke movement, different result.

I also provided assessment that release is correct, beta is incorrect. indeed, this is my assessment, based on the aviation experience and knowledge I have. (I'm an actual pilot flying actual aircraft) it is also supported by aviation literature.

the input I got on this forum ranges among the following:

• there is no difference between the two cases (when there obviously is, and it's documented)
  
• that's how it should be (but then release is wrong, as it's different from beta)
  
• pure nonsense (like one gets brain damage from exposure to 0.1 seconds to an onset of a redout, seriously guys)
  

such input I find quite useless.

I also urge people to educate themselves on human factors for flying, and also flying in general.

aircraft have inertia, and thus it takes time from a yoke movement to move the elevator to alter the airflow to turn the aircraft which will change the trajectory and that results in a G force. this never happens instantaneously, esp. not on WWII plane. the effect seen on the problematic video is immediate, which is unrealistic. the effect seen on the DCS release version seems to be realistic. (actually if one tries to get into a redout on the Spitfire in DCS release, it is quite hard to do - which seems realistic. it also seems realistic that one gets a stall due to hi AoA earlier than achieving a blackout due to positive G forces. these aircraft didn't really get into very high G regimes)

after experiencing a (negative) G force, it still takes a few seconds for the body to react, around 2-4 seconds according to this article for a high negative G load: http://goflightmed.wpengine.com/?p=2309 . again, the effect on the DCS beta video is instantaneous, which is unrealistic, even if the aircraft magically entered a high negative G state immediately on a minor yoke input.

to summarize:

 

I provided an error description, with proof, that something works differently in DCS release and in Beta. this is fact, the videos also show: same yoke movement, different result.

 

I also provided assessment that release is correct, beta is incorrect. indeed, this is my assessment, based on the aviation experience and knowledge I have. (I'm an actual pilot flying actual aircraft) it is also supported by aviation literature.

 

the input I got on this forum ranges among the following:

 

• there is no difference between the two cases (when there obviously is, and it's documented)
  
• that's how it should be (but then release is wrong, as it's different from beta)
  
• pure nonsense (like one gets brain damage from exposure to 0.1 seconds to an onset of a redout, seriously guys)
  

 

such input I find quite useless.

 

I also urge people to educate themselves on human factors for flying, and also flying in general.

 

aircraft have inertia, and thus it takes time from a yoke movement to move the elevator to alter the airflow to turn the aircraft which will change the trajectory and that results in a G force. this never happens instantaneously, esp. not on WWII plane. the effect seen on the problematic video is immediate, which is unrealistic. the effect seen on the DCS release version seems to be realistic. (actually if one tries to get into a redout on the Spitfire in DCS release, it is quite hard to do - which seems realistic. it also seems realistic that one gets a stall due to hi AoA earlier than achieving a blackout due to positive G forces. these aircraft didn't really get into very high G regimes)

 

after experiencing a (negative) G force, it still takes a few seconds for the body to react, around 2-4 seconds according to this article for a high negative G load: http://goflightmed.wpengine.com/?p=2309 . again, the effect on the DCS beta video is instantaneous, which is unrealistic, even if the aircraft magically entered a high negative G state immediately on a minor yoke input.

i disagree with that faster you going faster reaction will be maby at speeds near stall speed plane would react with lag but at speeds 300mph plane will react almost instant

I have just tried this out and, with my install at least, there appears to be a major change in behaviour at just over 220mph. Tests started from an approximation to level flight at somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 ft.

At 220 or less, pushing the stick rapidly all the way forwards produced a good red-out effect. Above this speed, rapid push forward produces the instant blackout.

Unlike the OP though my in-game vision slowly returned when I centred the stick, with enough time for me to recover on each occasion.

I have just tried this out and, with my install at least, there appears to be a major change in behaviour at just over 220mph. Tests started from an approximation to level flight at somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 ft.

 

 

At 220 or less, pushing the stick rapidly all the way forwards produced a good red-out effect. Above this speed, rapid push forward produces the instant blackout.

 

 

Unlike the OP though my in-game vision slowly returned when I centred the stick, with enough time for me to recover on each occasion.

ok question is what was peak G load

another question is it possible to move stick all the way forward at this speed in real plane check how stick works in bf109 its laggy you cant do any rapid movents and it take time for full deflection even at low speeds

in p-51 i know that stick is quite hard especialy on ailerons and you need to trim it for level flight other wise it will wear you arm very fast dont know about spitfire stick forces but at quite big speeds it must have some force required deflect the stick not allowing to move it like it was not connected at all

Maby ED implemented that becous ppl in spit were doing some crazy maneuvers like pulling -5g or even more to avoid enemy planes so ED put this instant black out when crit G load is reached or maby its a bug who knows ED is very terse in terms of patch notes

I don't disagree and do not encounter this in my normal flying of the Spit (I wouldn't throw the controls around like this)

Just curious about the step change in behaviour:)

I does appear as if it is a scripted event - view your aircraft from an F2 view while pushing the nose hard, and you can see control movement halt, and pilot figure twitch at the moment of blackout. The aircraft carries on in the direction set before blackout. I'm no expert, but that seems a bit odd.

All that being said, pushing the stick hard forwards fully is probably a bad idea in general, even if you have fuel injection.

BTW: interesting site with lots of aircraft performance data & reports on spits and other WWII types.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-IX.html