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Bf 109G and Fw 190A's


andremsmv

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I'm sorry if this has been heavily discussed before, but I did a little searching around and found pretty much nothing on this topic.

 

The Bf 109K4 started production in late 1944 (October), the Fw 190D9 in mid 1944 (August). The P-51D on the other hand, started production in 1943 (could not find a month) and was combat ready by June 1944 (not a huge deal), and the Spitfire Mk IX LF was introduced (engine switch to Merlin 66) in mid 1943 (big difference).

 

The questions I have now are 1) Will we see earlier versions of the Bf 109, Fw 190, or the P-51D (Bf 109G's, Fw 190A's, or P-51D's without gyroscopic gunsights) in order to make WWII match ups more realistic? and 2) Would it be easy to make earlier versions of these planes (i.e. would the devs simply be able to modify the current models that they have) or would they have to be made from scratch like any other plane?

 

I think having these earlier planes would open the door to many possibilities and would make other planes such as the P-47, P-38, Typhoon, the Spitfire IX (which we already have), or the P-40 much more relevant.

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Yeah, ED really made a mistake building those variants of the FW190 and BF109. And as this guy says, just AI atm. Once AI get smart, it should probably be as good as fighting an actual person. Then we can combat variants of the 109 and 190 that are more accurate and suitable.

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Yeah, ED really made a mistake building those variants of the FW190 and BF109. And as this guy says, just AI atm. Once AI get smart, it should probably be as good as fighting an actual person. Then we can combat variants of the 109 and 190 that are more accurate and suitable.

 

It wasn't ED, the decision was made by RRG Studios (Kickstarter).

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Learn something every day! :)

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  • 3 months later...

Is there a way to limit power outputs for aircraft, such that you could get closer to the realistic power outputs for the aircraft in say 41-43?

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Is there a way to limit power outputs for aircraft, such that you could get closer to the realistic power outputs for the aircraft in say 41-43?

 

The mission maker can always remove MW50 for the 109 and 190. None of them do.;)

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The mission maker can always remove MW50 for the 109 and 190. None of them do.;)
I didn't know that was possible. How is this done?

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The mission maker can always remove MW50 for the 109 and 190. None of them do.;)

Because there would be outrage and claims of bias for days and you would see 0 people flying German planes. :pilotfly:

I didn't know that was possible. How is this done?

It is one click in the editor.

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How does a 109 without mw50 compare to a spit? What’s the real impact on speed and acceleration like?

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You can do it for every plane in mission editor.

But if "Warehouse in airport" is not "edited players will fill MW tank during refuel/rearm.

 

The best way is set "Warehouse in airport" empty for Luftwaffe base or bases.

Screen_180209_101506.thumb.png.b34f163336591b732db17bb767acdf1d.png

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Let me play the devil's advocate. The problem is that by removing MW50 you make things less historical. Even G models had this if I'm not mistaken. Also, the K is only a little faster than the G10, and is less maneuverable. So a K without MW50 would perform much worse than a G10 that was in action over Normandy. As far as I know...

 

I'm more for correcting the engine performance of the Mustang to restore the relative balance of these types (by balance I don't mean they should be equal, but historically accurate)

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Let me play the devil's advocate. The problem is that by removing MW50 you make things less historical. Even G models had this if I'm not mistaken. Also, the K is only a little faster than the G10, and is less maneuverable. So a K without MW50 would perform much worse than a G10 that was in action over Normandy. As far as I know...

 

I'm more for correcting the engine performance of the Mustang to restore the relative balance of these types (by balance I don't mean they should be equal, but historically accurate)

 

From a quick read (and please advise if I'm wrong) I think it's a "depends".

Did a quick search earlier and found that the Spit mkXI was introduced in 1942, roughly around the same time as the Me109G. The G had 1300hp and from my quick read, appeared to actually be just slightly slower in a straight line, but a little faster in a dive.

If the above is correct, then if you wish to model 42', removing MW50 "might" be appropriate.

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You can do it for every plane in mission editor.

But if "Warehouse in airport" is not "edited players will fill MW tank during refuel/rearm.

 

The best way is set "Warehouse in airport" empty for Luftwaffe base or bases.

 

MW50 isn’t refilled on rearm refuel. Long time bug that still hasn’t been fixed afaik.

 

As far as ‘balance’ the best thing to do would be model one of the low altitude G14 or G6s. AS versions won’t be that different from the K4, but the Beule is a bit draggier. Puts it in a spot where it’s a bit faster than the spit and a bit slower than the mustang. Giving the mustang another 200hp probably won’t change a lot, not that it shouldn’t get it. And that’s also assuming that the mustang gets higher octane fuel and the Germans don’t get C3. IIRC sithspawn said ed was looking into both.

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Let me play the devil's advocate. The problem is that by removing MW50 you make things less historical. Even G models had this if I'm not mistaken. Also, the K is only a little faster than the G10, and is less maneuverable. So a K without MW50 would perform much worse than a G10 that was in action over Normandy. As far as I know...

 

I'm more for correcting the engine performance of the Mustang to restore the relative balance of these types (by balance I don't mean they should be equal, but historically accurate)

 

Unfortunately this analysis is flawed as the G10 didn't arrive until after Normandy it is the G14 which should have been selected and is shower than the K4 by some margin.

 

Either way you spin it what we have now is the very latest luftwaffe unit's against a hodge podge of mid war spit and Pacific mustang :huh:

 

Only way to settle this is to develop the Tempest, Spitire XIV, G6/AS/G10 and Fw190 A-8/-9.

 

Not going to hold my breath until ED tells us there plans.

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I don't get it. Why not just give P51 its 72-75" MP and be done with it. Each side gets its best as the history would allow. And there should be no more complaining.

 

Because that would leave Spitfire pilots some 30mph behind and with an aircraft 2 years older.

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Just removing MW50 from the K-4 wouldn't be historical as the K-4 was heavier than the G6 by about 200 kg for example, and almost 400 kg heavier than a G2.

 

I don't get it. Why not just give P51 its 72-75" MP and be done with it. Each side gets its best as the history would allow. And there should be no more complaining.

 

Then you'd need to give the K-4 1.98 ata as well...

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Because that would leave Spitfire pilots some 30mph behind and with an aircraft 2 years older.

 

Just removing MW50 from the K-4 wouldn't be historical as the K-4 was heavier than the G6 by about 200 kg for example, and almost 400 kg heavier than a G2.

 

 

 

Then you'd need to give the K-4 1.98 ata as well...

 

That doesn't make any sense.

 

You're confused of what the actually baseline for the plane set should've been.

 

The reality is the Spitfire IX, P-51 and P-47 should be fighting poorly constructed Fw-190A8s and Bf-109G-14s while using 150 grade fuel(I can't fully speak for the IX). <- This should've been the roster from the start if you're calling for historical accuracy. So why the hell are they using 130 grade fuel against top of the line Doras and Kurfurst. Also the rare as hell Me-262. The P-51 and P-47 should get their righteous historical boost settings. This wouldn't be a matter of balance of gameplay its a fact they were running on higher boost settings than portrayed in game. Too suggest any kind of historical accuracy would be to remove the D9 and K4.

 

However, Its quite clear DCS is interesting in historical accuracy. They are going for the top of the line aircraft of the Germans while for some reason only the lowest grade work horses for the allies. So they should follow through with the same logic they used with the Axis. That would mean the addition of the Spitfire XIV, P-47M and P-51 with all the bells and whistles including 150 grade fuel. However this isn't going to happen because of time constraints so at the absolute bear minimum the allies should have 150 grade fuel.

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"poorly constructed" ? *sigh* at least I know who I'm talking to now....

 

 

The K4 was not a rare aircraft late in the war, neither was the Dora, and we have the low boost settings for those two aircraft as well. If you want the highest operational boost settings for the Allied aircraft then you should expect the same from the German aircraft. Can't have it just one way.

 

 

Also like I was trying to explain just taking away MW50 from the K-4 wouldn't simulate a 1942-43 Bf-109 as those earlier types were considerably lighter.

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"poorly constructed" ? *sigh* at least I know who I'm talking to now....

 

 

The K4 was not a rare aircraft late in the war, neither was the Dora, and we have the low boost settings for those two aircraft as well. If you want the highest operational boost settings for the Allied aircraft then you should expect the same from the German aircraft. Can't have it just one way.

 

 

Also like I was trying to explain just taking away MW50 from the K-4 wouldn't simulate a 1942-43 Bf-109 as those earlier types were considerably lighter.

 

Sorry, are you going to suggest German planes were built to the same quality as their previous variants in 1943?.

 

Nope, I never said the K4 and D9 were rare. What I said was the K4 and D9 are the best German planes available by late 1944 - early 1945. So why not use the same logic for the allies?

 

Now that you've mentioned it at bodenplatte only 86 K4s and 157 D9s were serviceable. What we have in game is a P-47M and Spitfire XIV vs Bf-109G-14 and Fw-190A8. If you can't see the equivalence between this and what's in the game then I can't help you.

 

Try rereading my reply. If you had read it, you wouldn't have repeated yourself on I point I've already addressed.

 

I'm not calling for the removal of MW50 on German aircraft. Who'd want to fly without a necessary addition that dramatically changes how your plane performance? <- Get what I'm saying now?


Edited by DSR_T-800
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Something that may interest people in this discussion. This is a snip from the volume 1 of the 2nd TAF series of books. I've no idea of what quality of reference it is but from what I have seen and read of other peoples comments in various places in these forums and outside them it seems to be regarded highly and it is a pretty recent work.

 

 

If you look you'll see that there appears to be only 3 Spit XIV squadrons in the D-Day OOB with the majority being Mk IX but still some Spit V and VII squadrons. 2 of the XIV squadrons were 2nd TAF the other was an 11 Group Home Defence squadron. The main element missing from the 2nd TAF point of view of DCS and fighters/fighter bombers seems to be Typhoon IBs, Mustang IIIs and mainly it's the Tiffie's that are missing really. To me it looks like Spit IXs and Typhoons were the backbone of the 2nd TAF. Note only 2 squadrons of Tempest Vs too.

 

 

Anyway for your interest please see attached.

OOB1.thumb.jpg.407bdd7cf34ccafa0d74d1a12a4a1106.jpg

OOB2.thumb.jpg.ae42083b788a807b60526730dd026d9f.jpg

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Come on, not again this Topic discussed no endless Time again and again...

The Majority of the Luftwaffe was bad build 109's with less experienced Pilots about overwhelming Allied Airforce Power at end War Stages there is no doubt...

But still a game, how want to Fight in Multiplayer with crappy G6 a P-51 that climbs twice as fast can Fly Circles around you...

That current FW-190D9 ingame have a hart Time to fight P-51 with it superior Handlings Charactirstics...

I love to fly the P-51 because of its good Handling overall...

You can never satisfied all People here, and we should go overall for 190A8 and G6AS as make the Mustang even faster compare to the Spit, and all other Planes suffer to catch a P-51 in game.

And dont make exotic Planes like realy rare P-47M who propably suffer more reliability Problems then the crappy 109s to the end of the War...


Edited by MAD-MM

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