AI F-5 Fights with Flaps Up

The AI F-5 is not fighting to the best of its ability in that it seems to never use its maneuvering flaps and slaps.

I tested, pitting it against an AI MiG-21 and it loses most times because it is not taking advantage of its main weapon, its maneuverability.

This is a major concern for users who do not engage in multiplayer, and rely on AI wingmen.

Already the DCS MiG-21 has a very unrealistic flight model. E.g. place an AI MiG-21 against an AI F-16 and watch as the MiG-21 not only keeps up with the F-16 in tight turning, despite having no combat high lift devices, but the MiG is also able to out last the F-16, which eventually runs out of fuel fighting the MiG, despite having a turbofan engine and more fuel in blended wings.

But with this the F-5 has no chance if it doesn’t even use its best attribute.

Can the AI scripts for the F-5 be updated to use maneuvering flaps?

The AI flight models are scripted anyway. None of them are realistic, and whether you see various graphical animations is not directly related to what it is or is not doing.

Yeah, the AI FMs are heavily simplified.

For one example, at least in the 2.5.5 stable, if you do the air-to-air instant action mission for the F-5E-3, you're pitted against an AI F-5E-3 which is co-speed and co-altitude with you and (presumably) loaded with the same weapons and amount of fuel.

You start fairly high at 30,000 feet, at that altitude you'll be struggling to really do much, meanwhile the AI has confused an F-5E-3 for an ICBM, and manages to just pull up on afterburner performing a vertical climb all the way up to 60,000 feet, you haven't got a hope in hell to catch him.

When he comes back down he'll be able to boom and zoom you, if he doesn't he'll be able to retain energy like an F-16 regardless of speed. But not just that, the AI also manages to retain maximum pitch and roll rate (AFAICT) regardless of speed, even if you're barely managing. The AI was always able to stay behind me regardless of what I did.

It was like fighting an F-16 if I'm honest, I just can't keep up, the AI always seems to be able to out energy me.

I don't have a track, but I can make one, unless something has changed.

EDIT: Here you go, 1 track where I win with mostly luck (+ bonus craptacular landing) and another where I don't

In both cases the AI starts off by zoom climbing all the way up to 50,000 feet, in the lucky one I manage to catch him on the way down before he can use his AI manoeuvrability. In the unlucky one we get into a high-aspect merge, I struggle to keep up and eventually he gets behind me, you'll notice that in many cases he manages to shoot off and make quite incredible turns meanwhile I'm in a low energy state and can't really do all that much. In general the AI manages to turn harder without penalty as well as managing to accelerate faster, especially while turning.

EDIT 2: Still does this as of 2.7.8.16140 OB

F-5E-3 vs F-5E-3 1v1 (unlucky).trk

F-5E-3 vs F-5E-3 1v1 (lucky).trk

The AI flight models are scripted anyway. None of them are realistic, and whether you see various graphical animations is not directly related to what it is or is not doing.

That is a fair assessment. However since I see the flaps being used by the AI during landing, and since the AI F-5 also flies like its flaps are up, we can only assume there is a correlation, unless you or a dev or someone else can show what you suggest is true in the scripting.

Even if the animation does not correlafe to the scripting, then the purpose of this bug report is to request that it does.

The main point is that it is not working to the benefit of the AI F-5 and this affect wingman usage.

I suggest this should be considered rather than brushed under the rug because 'its scripting'.

Yeah, the AI FMs are heavily simplified.

 

For one example, at least in the 2.5.5 stable, if you do the BFM instant action mission for the F-5E-3, you're pitted against an AI F-5E-3 which is co-speed and co-altitude with you and (presumably) loaded with the same weapons and amount of fuel.

 

You start fairly high at 30,000 feet, at that altitude you'll be struggling to really do much, meanwhile the AI has confused an F-5E-3 for an ICBM, and manages to just pull up on afterburner performing a vertical climb all the way up to 60,000 feet, you haven't got a hope in hell to catch him.

 

When he comes back down he'll be able to boom and zoom you, if he doesn't he'll be able to retain energy like an F-16 regardless of speed. But not just that, the AI also manages to retain maximum pitch and roll rate (AFAICT) regardless of speed, even if you're barely managing. The AI was always able to stay behind me regardless of what I did.

 

It was like fighting a clean F-16, but one that was able to perform at 30,000 feet and 450 knots as well as 2500 feet at 250 knots.

 

I don't have a track, but I can make one, unless something has changed.

Thank Northstar for these details.

I agree with you and see similar behavior.

In your tests, what skill level was your AI opponent?

To me, and from what I read some other users also find, any skill level higher than Average, and the AI plane gets less restrictions on turning speed loss and acceleration.

I was looking around some lua files and see some parameters like lift and drag coefficients for certain planes.

This suggest the plane, whether player or AI controlled may use the same coefficients. But with higher skill levels, the speed up or down limitations are relaxed.

This is something that did not seem to be the case in version 1.5.5. which I also still have installed as well. In the older version Excellent skill behaves like Average skill now.

I also hope they will revert back to the more realistic, less arcade like skill sets of the earlier version.

However this request is some what different, and is only related to AI F-5 flap usage, which to me seems it could be separate.

LowRider88 said:

Thank Northstar for these details.

I agree with you and see similar behavior.

 

In your tests, what skill level was your AI opponent?

I believe it was set to excellent, it's the Air-to-Air instant action mission that comes with the F-5E-3, I'll get back to you.

LowRider88 said:

To me, and from what I read some other users also find, any skill level higher than Average, and the AI plane gets less restrictions on turning speed loss and acceleration.

 

I was looking around some lua files and see some parameters like lift and drag coefficients for certain planes.

This suggest the plane, whether player or AI controlled may use the same coefficients. But with higher skill levels, the speed up or down limitations are relaxed.

Anecdotally I'm inclined to agree, though it might be difficult to test properly. I definitely feel that 'Excellent' seems to have an energy/turning rate advantage over 'Average' despite them being the same aircraft. In general I see similar tactics being used by both (for instance, if you're behind them with a near guns solution, they both like to perform endless vertical loops), it's just harder/borderline impossible to stay with them with identical aircraft.

LowRider88 said:

However this request is some what different, and is only related to AI F-5 flap usage, which to me seems it could be separate.

Oh I didn't mean to hijack the thread. It's just that the flaps not operating as you'd expect to for AI is probably related to the over simplified flight models, so it's likely (given just how simplified they are) that a.) the AI never operates the flaps as they retain controllability and pitch rate, under regimes where a matching player aircraft would have to be using flaps; or b.) that the FMs are so simplified that manoeuvring flaps aren't actually implemented i.e they don't actually do anything if deployed.

Suffice to say I don't think we'll see AI doing the things player aircraft do (including using manoeuvring flaps) until their FMs mandate it (which right now, they kinda don't).

If it's any consolation, AI and their fms are supposed to be updated.

Someday.

I believe it was set to excellent, it's the Air-to-Air instant action mission that comes with the F-5E-3, I'll get back to you.

I haven't played the missions that come with it yet, but I think you are right since, I think I read elsewhere that others had to purposely open up the out of box missions and change all the skill levels to Average or High, just so it was flyable.

Anecdotally I'm inclined to agree, though it might be difficult to test properly. I definitely feel that 'Excellent' seems to have an energy/turning rate advantage over 'Average' despite them being the same aircraft. In general I see similar tactics being used by both (for instance, if you're behind them with a near guns solution, they both like to perform endless vertical loops), it's just harder/borderline impossible to stay with them, even with identical aircraft.

I totally agree with you Northstar.

Oh I didn't mean to hijack the thread. It's just that the flaps not operating as you'd expect to for AI is probably related to the over simplified flight models so it's likely (given just how simplified they are) that a.) the AI never operates the flaps as they retain controllability and pitch rate under regimes where a matching player aircraft would have to be using flaps; or b.) that the FMs are so simplified that manoeuvring flaps aren't actually implemented i.e they don't actually do anything if deployed.

Oh, I didn't mean that you were hijacking the thread. I was just clarifying the distinction I thought was there.

Okay I see. You may be right. I see the AI MiG-23 and Su-22 never sweep their wings. Maybe that is because the 3Ds never had that animation, or maybe as you say those as well as the flaps are never used in what seem to be simple scripts.

Suffice to say I don't think we'll see AI doing the things player aircraft do (including using manoeuvring flaps) until their FMs mandate it (which right now, they kinda don't).

If this is the case, which I hope it is not, at the very least, I am hoping they can then just adjust the AI maneuvers overall for the AI F-5 so that it better reflects the maneuverability. Of course the animations would also make it more true to life.

If it's any consolation, AI and their fms are supposed to be updated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someday.

Okay, Thanks

LowRider88 said:

Okay I see. You may be right. I see the AI MiG-23 and Su-22 never sweep their wings. Maybe that is because the 3Ds never had that animation, or maybe as you say those as well as the flaps are never used in what seem to be simple scripts.

That's odd, on my end (current 2.5.6 stable) any aircraft that can sweep its wings can do so, so long as it's going fast enough (tried with F-14A, MiG-23MLD, Su-17M4, Su-24M and Tu-22M3 @ 5000 feet @ 500-600 knots).

LowRider88 said:

If this is the case, which I hope it is not, at the very least, I am hoping they can then just adjust the AI maneuvers overall for the AI F-5 so that it better reflects the maneuverability. Of course the animations would also make it more true to life.

Yes, it's fair to say that we all are, though some of them aren't as bad an offender as others (the F-5E-3 and MiG-21bis are notable examples).

It would be nice to see animations for manoeuvre flaps even if they don't affect the AI simplified flight model, though either using the same logic as player aircraft or just a simple AoA in bounds.

That said, I do have a feeling that AI FMs are simplified to the point where manoeuvring flaps aren't modelled for their FMs, as the only time I can get the AI to deploy slats and flaps is takeoffs and landings - so it appears, for AI aircraft they aren't implemented at all, across the board.

That's odd, on my end (current 2.5.6 stable) any aircraft that can sweep its wings can do so, so long as it's going fast enough (tried with F-14A, MiG-23MLD, Su-17M4, Su-24M and Tu-22M3 @ 5000 feet @ 500-600 knots).

 

 

 

Yes, it's fair to say that we all are, though some of them aren't as bad an offender as others (the F-5E-3 and MiG-21Bis are notable examples).

 

It would be nice to see animations for manoeuvre flaps even if they don't affect the AI simplified flight model, though either using the same logic as player aircraft or just a simple AoA in bounds.

 

That said, I do have a feeling that AI FMs are simplified to the point where manoeuvring flaps aren't modelled for their FMs, as the only time I can get the AI to deploy slats and flaps is takeoffs and landings - so it appears, for AI aircraft they aren't implemented at all, across the board.

Okay, Thanks for these details Northstar, I will check again later today, as I am still on 2.5.5.

Well, just hoping they do something to improve the F-5 AI wingmen combat capabilities.