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Take Off in the Bf 109K-4


iFoxRomeo

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This movie clarified things for me a bit more. I always had a mushy fog around those 4 factors and used to confuse and fuse them a bit. Now is clear why it's so violent :) .

 

 

sorry if it was posted before :)

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Good video! I wasn't aware of P-Factor... That should help to better anticipate the moment you need to ease a bit on the right rudder not to veer right.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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This works for me:

 

- Engine governor (prop rpm) manual, set to 12:00.

- Trim full nose down (+2)

- Tail wheel locked.

- Full right rudder and then throttle. Ease off right rudder as soon as plane starts to move right.

- Throttle full, hand on joystick (pay attention and pray)

- It leaps into the air fairly quickly. Watch out for a sudden roll.

- Wheels up, and Engine governor (prop rpm) to automatic (otherwise the engine will die)

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  • 2 weeks later...
This works for me:

 

- Engine governor (prop rpm) manual, set to 12:00.

- Trim full nose down (+2)

- Tail wheel locked.

- Full right rudder and then throttle. Ease off right rudder as soon as plane starts to move right.

- Throttle full, hand on joystick (pay attention and pray)

- It leaps into the air fairly quickly. Watch out for a sudden roll.

- Wheels up, and Engine governor (prop rpm) to automatic (otherwise the engine will die)

 

I actually came upon this last night in my tinkering. The only thing I do differently is I only use +1 on the trim. It really makes the aircraft nice and tame for take off.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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The ground is a way to slippery.

We have rubber on our wheels, and the runaway is not made of ice, then the got much pressure from the AC weight on the back wheel because. If we pull back the stick, the elevator works like a big Spoiler. So a real pilot says me, he has to push the stick a littel bit forward so he can steer the plane even using the brakes. And if he is starting, there is no "slippering" feeling at the backside, it's more a pressure against another one. The plane would never "spin around" alone. It would drift slightly if the power has no big up and downs.

What we have now feels more like an ice dance, than starting an Air Plane!

Where is all that friction force gone at ground with locked wheels?

I hope in CDS 2.0 there is a better ground physic than we have now (nearly non).


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I think that the rudder needs to be looked at as well...on the ground right rudder seems to have zero authority, until some substantial forward speed is achieved. I think the aircraft should have a reaction from the use of the right rudder when coupled with a blast of thrust, even if stationary. Before brakes were widely used in aircraft in and/after the thirties, the rudder was IT for maneuvering on the ground, because those aircraft had no brakes in them. Even when brakes came along and were widely installed, pilots were encouraged to save the brakes for that next big emergency and to only use the rudder when trans versing on the grounds...I hope that the on the ground rudder gets a good look at :)


Edited by GT 5.0
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So a real pilot says me, he has to push the stick a littel bit forward so he can steer the plane even using the brakes. And if he is starting, there is no "slippering" feeling at the backside, it's more a pressure against another one. The plane would never "spin around" alone. It would drift slightly if the power has no big up and downs.

Is that pilot flying Bf-109s with a DB-605 engine or at least other WW II fighter aircraft?

 

A Piper Cub or Citabria Modell 7gcbc is like a Toyota Corolla compared to a Formula One racing car with slick tires,,,:smartass:

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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I remember from talking to Erich Brunetto at Duxford last year that he said in the 109 is was common to have to use toe brakes both during the take off roll and for steering on the ground to initialise the turn and a tap of opposite to brake to straighten up.

 

Whenever I've flown the 109 in dcs Erichs words go through my mind and his advice helps with the handing of the 109k4.

 

Therefore I'd say it's pretty close.

 

Pman

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I remember from talking to Erich Brunetto at Duxford last year that he said in the 109 is was common to have to use toe brakes both during the take off roll and for steering on the ground to initialise the turn and a tap of opposite to brake to straighten up.

 

Whenever I've flown the 109 in dcs Erichs words go through my mind and his advice helps with the handing of the 109k4.

 

Therefore I'd say it's pretty close.

 

Pman

 

 

What seems off to me is there is no reaction to thrust using the right rudder, the left seems is OK

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Left rudder works WITH slipstream and torque, right rudder works AGAINST it. So when pushing right rudder you prevent the plane from turning left due to the effects mentioned in the video above...

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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More engine power until slipstream produces enough airflow to counter torque AND force the tail around, with the 109 short "pulses" rather than continuous inputs on the throttle. Yet, as Pman said: a real WW II 109 pilot stated correctly you need to hit a little brake to initiate a turn and a small hit to the opposite side to realign straight. The small rudder surface of the 109 is not producing enough force on its own to steer the plane, unless you throttle up in regions where you get to fast for taxiing.

Anyway, I trust Erich's or Pmans judgment more than complaints of people like me who might never have flown a taildragger nor a 109 specifically...

No offense meant, just my perception.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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The tiny rudder of the 109 has no chance at zero speed to compensate the torque. We have the same problem with RC 109s - if you build one with perfect scale you will have a hard time if you try to fly them - make it 20% larger -> everything is OK.

 

Don't compare the 109's rudder with a typical 30's plane rudder - they was way bigger.

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Boy I don't now about that, no reaction to a force action. That seems to defy a basic

Don't get me wrong. There is a reaction! Normally the torque and slipstream applied would push the plane to the left without right rudder or brake. Try it! That is why you pulse the throttle. So the reaction of the rudder input merely compensates the torque and/or slipstream force. That is what was mentioned be "small" rudder. Its surface is not enough to counter more slipstream pushing against it than keeping the tail straight.

Leave the rudder centered and push the throttle to max for 5 seconds without rudder input... What happens?

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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What seems off to me is there is no reaction to thrust using the right rudder, the left seems is OK

 

In CW rotating propeller, everything is trying to go left.

 

The rudder in a taildragger is useless at taxi speeds. It takes considerable power for the aerodynamic forces to move the aircraft based on rudder input.

 

In order to get enough propeller blast over the rudder and generate enough aerodynamic force usually means the tail will lift. Not only is that very hard on the brakes to keep the aircraft under control with all that additional power; you are risking a prop strike if the tail comes off the ground. Relax that back pressure to unlock the tailwheel and the airplane will plant the propeller in the dirt.

 

Heat your brakes enough and you will lose them.

 

The Bf-109 is tail heavy at taxi. That means braking power is good but you might have to add a tiny bit of power to lighten the tail and stomp on the rudder to unlock the tailwheel when the castor angle is extreme. That means when the tail wheel is opposite the direction you want to turn, you going to need a little power to get to flip around and go the direction you want to taxi.

 

The Bf-109 is a typical taildragger in that the speed range the braking power is designed to be effective for directional control overlaps the point the aerodynamic forces come into play allowing the rudder to be effective for directional control.

 

A few airplanes do not do this but they are rare. The T-6 comes to mind and is a scary airplane for a few moments on take off or landing as you have no directional control until the speed changes.

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Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Boy I don't now about that, no reaction to a force action. That seems to defy a basic

 

It like in Mi-8, in some circumstances one rudder input barely does something when the other has to be limited not to put the helicopter on it's head.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I finally took off the first time in the K4. Man this thing rolls left hard on take off. Many a broken wing, before I figured it out to a nasty extent.

 

Would this be an accelerated wing stall by chance, or torque roll on take off?

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Wing stall usually. As soon as it flies itself off the runway push down the nose a bit to keep here flying level until you have enough speed.

Normally the 109 pitches up as soon as she gets airborne.

Do NOT push the throttle into max position. Wait a few seconds and slowly(!) advance it.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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I never go above ~1.4ATA on take off and I usually stick to ~1.35ATA. It also helps to trim a little nose down.



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Wing stall usually. As soon as it flies itself off the runway push down the nose a bit to keep here flying level until you have enough speed.

Normally the 109 pitches up as soon as she gets airborne.

Do NOT push the throttle into max position. Wait a few seconds and slowly(!) advance it.

 

Ya I noticed in level flight I have to set fletners to +2 in order to fly level... otherwise it pitches hard up.

 

Gonna try a take-off with it set to +2 maybe it won't wing stall so hard on lift-off.

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I usually start with +1. Just push the stick a bit forward once you reach ~90km/h. You will then continue the take off roll on your main gear for a few meters until the 109 leaves the ground. Just hold the stick slightly forward to fly level above the runway until you reach ~270km/h and start climbing (hold that speed until you're at altitude)



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I usually start with +1. Just push the stick a bit forward once you reach ~90km/h. You will then continue the take off roll on your main gear for a few meters until the 109 leaves the ground. Just hold the stick slightly forward to fly level above the runway until you reach ~270km/h and start climbing (hold that speed until you're at altitude)

 

I used +2, and it made a huge difference on take off for me. Little to no wing stall then.

 

But, I used the technique I saw in a video from some other player.... full right back stick with 70% right rudder, and slowly let off the ailerons and elevator to 0 stick position at 100km/h. Still had to maintain a good rudder authority, but no left roll stall this time was easy getting off the ground with control.


Edited by Page.Down
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