Power of the N019 radar

I recently read the following passage in the book Famous Russian Aircraft Mikoyan MiG-29 by Yefim Gordon (page 293)

"However the Americans were in for a rude shock: a DACT session with Luftwaffe's MiG-29s

in Germany revealed that the operating frequencies of the two fighters' radars were very similar.

As a result the N019 radar effectively jammed the opponents radar, prevent a lock-on and missile launch,

whereas the MiG-29 could still track the target and use its R-27 missiles. The USAF ordered an urgent (and costly)

upgrade, but the problem persisted - the MiG-29's radar could still 'blind' the adversary when switched to

full power."

Does anyone here know the veracity of this claim or if it is modelled in DCS at all? Or any other possible details regarding this.

So far I've not been able to find any further material online on this matter.

Yefim Gordon is great but knowing ED they’ll want multiple first hand sources. What plane is he referring to? Of our USAF teen series only F-15 is from late Cold War

Yefim Gordon is great

Yes he is ..

but knowing ED they’ll want multiple first hand sources.

What sources ?

ED has only access to public sources, the same everybody can have, and these sources are not reliable.

Yefim Gordon has true first hand sources, but they don't please a lot of people :)

They will want to know specifics, what radar is being jammed, what’s a reasonable distance, when did the jammed get updated to bypass this. Just knowing it Jams a USAF Radar post Cold War is probably not enough for them. I believe Yefim, but ED has their way verifying specific info, and the paragraph OP listed is probably not enough for them to say “okay in next patch MiG-29 jams F-15 Radar at all times”

The situation might be different if interfering radar channels were simulated, but they are not currently and it has no function in say the Hornet

They will want to know specifics, what radar is being jammed, what’s a reasonable distance, when did the jammed get updated to bypass this. Just knowing it Jams a USAF Radar post Cold War is probably not enough for them.

Sure, but i don't think they want to go this route with russian hardware.

The situation might be different if interfering radar channels were simulated, but they are not currently and it has no function in say the Hornet

Sadly, but simulating a coherent/believable electronic warfare is very difficult due to the lack of real informations (not public/marketing or propaganda informations).

Thank you guys for the comments.

I just noticed that my quote from the book wasn't quite "information complete" and really should start at pg 291 (292 is full of pictures)

"The F-15 supposedly had an advantage in the form of a more sophisticated radar with longer detection range

and a pulse-Doppler main mode giving multiple track-while-scan capability. In theory, this would

give a flight of F-15s 'first-shot, first-kill' capability, allowing them to destroy most of the opposing MiGs

in one swipe and denying the survivors any chance to engage in close combat.

However the Americans were in for a rude shock: a DACT session with Luftwaffe's MiG-29s

in Germany revealed that the operating frequencies of the two fighters' radars were very similar.

As a result the N019 radar effectively jammed the opponents radar, prevent a lock-on and missile launch,

whereas the MiG-29 could still track the target and use its R-27 missiles. The USAF ordered an urgent (and costly)

upgrade, but the problem persisted - the MiG-29's radar could still 'blind' the adversary when switched to

full power."

Ah interesting

Does anyone here know the veracity of this claim or if it is modelled in DCS at all? Or any other possible details regarding this.

1) It's not modeled in DCS

2) EMI is nothing new IRL

and more importantly 3)

... which of these two radars do you think is more powerful here? If they were experiencing EMI, which one do you think would get blanked out first?

Radar power is not the only factor, US specialists didn't seems to be able to solve the problem, then it's not your little knowledge who will give the answer :)

Some countries like France/Russia have some hidden/secret military technologies.

Philosophy of these countries are not the same as US and military technologies are well protect.

Don't be over simplistic.

RF tech is not magic. You can only do so much.

Radar power is not the only factor, US specialists didn't seems to be able to solve the problem, then it's not your little knowledge who will give the answer :)

Which US specialists? The ones Yefim imagined? :)

Some countries like France/Russia have some hidden/secret military technologies.

Philosophy of these countries are not the same as US and military technologies are well protect.

Don't be over simplistic.

You're the one who's overly simplistic, and biased all I don't know what. Seriously, what? You think the US doesn't have top secret technology? Do you believe that the documents you see on the internet contain secrets? :megalol:

Sorry but 'your little knowledge' has betrayed you here, and that's strictly with respect to he incident's description no less :D

 

3)... which of these two radars do you think is more powerful here? If they were experiencing EMI, which one do you think would get blanked out first?

 

Although the power plays a big factor, here the more important is who attains the first lock, since cuing a radar and pointing that power gets a lot more complicated with interference...

Generally a lot of system performance (RWR, Radar, Missiles, CMs....) are a lot more reliable in DCS then in RL, a lot of it has to do with the limit of what is and what can be simulated.

Which US specialists? The ones Yefim imagined? :)

No the ones who did the upgrade.

You're the one who's overly simplistic,

Ah, where is my simplication ?

I just say that France/Russia have some hidden military technology, that's not a simplification but a fact.

Do you believe that the documents you see on the internet contain secrets? :megalol:

From what internet documents are you talking about ? You are the one who has too much imagination :)

Sorry but 'your little knowledge..

....a lot of it has to do with the limit of what is and what can be simulated.

Exactly, and some things can't be simulate because unknown.

For this reason, simulation will never be like real life, and often, far from the reality.

Although the power plays a big factor, here the more important is who attains the first lock, since cuing a radar and pointing that power gets a lot more complicated with interference...

None of this makes sense in the context of this story. Here power IS the factor. What kind of joke are you telling when you're claiming that a less sophisticated radar in EVERY way, as well as less powerful, was jamming a more powerful, faster, more modern radar which is designed with all this stuff in mind? But you don't even have to go there because:

Generally a lot of system performance (RWR, Radar, Missiles, CMs....) are a lot more reliable in DCS then in RL, a lot of it has to do with the limit of what is and what can be simulated.

No, Yefim is just telling tall tales again and some people seem to want to claim that there's some sort of magical secret technology behind this; something that would literally happen by accident in a real fight and that has been dealt with since radar missiles were a thing, if not earlier.

None of this makes sense in the context of this story. Here power IS the factor. What kind of joke are you telling when you're claiming that a less sophisticated radar in EVERY way, as well as less powerful, was jamming a more powerful, faster, more modern radar which is designed with all this stuff in mind? But you don't even have to go there because:

Please read again, no one said power ISN'T the factor, it is and one of the main ones... but not only one... there are inherent difficulties between finding a target and tracking a target and no one said Eagle radar isn't more powerful and sophisticated... the best analogy here is two artillery pieces of 155mm or even 203mm vs a 122mm one.... does 155mm have big shell with more explosive and bigger range and almost all advantage... yes it does... but if both are in range and 122mm starts firing first is still can have effect and cause difficulties... there isn't a straight forward as 155mm always beats 122mm .

Just to be plastic and clear what I am saying:

- Eagle still has all the advantages

- Eagle has more powerful radar and better

- Fulcrum doesn't NOT have a Ray Gun that destroys the Eagle radar

- Does Eagle potential have difficulties locking on Fulcrum if Fulcrum has him in STT, yes it DOES

- Are there ways around those difficulties, yes there are

- I didn't comment Yefim's claims at all and feel people are reading too much in to them

- Radar power is not be all and end all in this situation that is why both planes do have contingency in place to switch modes etc...

And to repeat the bottom line:

-Lot of system performance (RWR, Radar, Missiles, CMs....) for all aircraft are a lot more reliable in DCS then in RL, a lot of it has to do with the limit of what is and what can be simulated.

GGTharos I just love how confident you are that it's impossible since Russian radar in question is inferior to its American counterpart as like you developed both of them and did field testing... Not saying that it did happen but it wouldn't be the first time military technology didn't work out as planned and won't be the last either that is why it is always evolving and adapting.

Also anyone who describes radar technology, electronic warfare or any aircraft sensor as "it's simple stuff you just need to pull this switch press this button voila" has no idea what he is talking about and that I guarantee. Almost all here can understand them on basic level and their usage but to really understand how it operates you need extensive knowledge on the topic even for the ones considered "simpler" in operation.

Before people start bashing me I must say that I never worked on development of such systems but I am quite familiar with the topic from studying physics and my electrical engineering degree so I know thing or two.

One more thing that was already mentioned, sadly DCS sensors send perfect data which almost never occurs in the real world but modeling such inaccurate data is probably too much work at this point and on top of it even if implemented would make many people angry because of the quasi randomness of it.

GGTharos I just love how confident you are that it's impossible since Russian radar in question is inferior to its American counterpart as like you developed both of them and did field testing... Not saying that it did happen but it wouldn't be the first time military technology didn't work out as planned and won't be the last either that is why it is always evolving and adapting.

So reading this whole incident, how do you feel about lack of reports of eagle radars jamming each other? Because this is really what this incident is describing: two radars on the same frequency, both of which should be suffering EMI, but magically, one of them doesn't.

- Does Eagle potential have difficulties locking on Fulcrum if Fulcrum has him in STT, yes it DOES

No, it DOESN'T. Proven in real combat already.

This just another silly Yefim story. They may have been flying an eagle with a busted radar which isn't impossible, but the rest of this story is just ... what?

Think about this, eagles fly vs. themselves and other jets in practice constantly. Have you ever heard of such a thing happening with them? No, you haven't. It's just something Yefim made up.

Also anyone who describes radar technology, electronic warfare or any aircraft sensor as "it's simple stuff you just need to pull this switch press this button voila" has no idea what he is talking about and that I guarantee.

^^ THIS

.. but magically, one of them doesn't.

Magic for you..

No, it DOESN'T. Proven in real combat already.

This argument means nothing, many things need to be take into consideration, particularly the conditions of engagement, and the truth about military fights is never totally disclosed to the general public, only the goods parts or propangada stories, but i hope you know that.

This just another silly Yefim story.

Easy.. you can do better..or not :)

Have you ever heard of such a thing happening with them? No, you haven't.

Normal (see my previous answer), but that doens't means it never happen and in fact it happens, the proof by Yefim.

Do you really think a country will say "hey world" we have some problems with our military hardware, it's not as reliable as we thought", seriously.

Are you biased ? :)

 

Think about this, eagles fly vs. themselves and other jets in practice constantly. Have you ever heard of such a thing happening with them? No, you haven't. It's just something Yefim made up.

First of all this is so simplistic is practically an objectively false statement .

I do consider some of Yefim claims to be very difficult to believe .I used to believe everything western was better but then i found out things like:

Russian engines are being used on US rockets like the RD180.

Think about this, eagles fly vs. themselves and other jets in practice constantly. Have you ever heard of such a thing happening with them?

Eagles interfere with them-self all the time... that is why the channel switch is there in the first place. Migs also have frequency presets need to be set before flight with number of peacetime frequencies and 2 wartime only. That is made clear and set in stone in planes manuals.

Back to the bottom line, none of it is simulated, and would also probably need a quite substantial CPU load to do... so don't expect it.

Are you biased ? :)

You are. So badly that you believe in magic technology and Yefim's made up claims.

And BTW, just because you use 'secret' instead of 'magic' doesn't mean you don't believe in magic.

First of all this is so simplistic is practically an objectively false statement .

Then there are no objectively true statements here.

I do consider some of Yefim claims to be very difficult to believe .I used to believe everything western was better but then i found out things like:

Russian engines are being used on US rockets like the RD180.

This may have been news to you, but it wasn't news to everyone.

None of this makes sense in the context of this story. Here power IS the factor. What kind of joke are you telling when you're claiming that a less sophisticated radar in EVERY way, as well as less powerful, was jamming a more powerful, faster, more modern radar which is designed with all this stuff in mind? But you don't even have to go there because:

 

Look at the left panel. Got a problem with EMI? Change the channel, it's right there on the radar panel. It's literally what it's there for. What 'expensive upgrade'?

 

No, Yefim is just telling tall tales again and some people seem to want to claim that there's some sort of magical secret technology behind this; something that would literally happen by accident in a real fight and that has been dealt with since radar missiles were a thing, if not earlier.

You don't know how RADARs work nor how they function and never will.