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rainyday

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I've been learning this awesome plane - but I would need little help fixing my errors.

 

Im beginning to understand how I'm supposed to do things, but when things don't go as I thought they would, I feel little lost.

 

Currently I'm working on getting hold of the navigation - I've been reading the manual and watching Bunyap's awesome videos. I'm also using the AJS37 Warfare & Reference Kneeboard charts.

 

Help me understand what I'm doing wrong, like for example my last mission:

 

-I'm flying the Caucasus Cold Start quick mission.

-I checked the correct runway heading (atleast I thought I checked the correct thing) so I did not use 'Reference' button on the runway

-Already at the first waypoint I notice nav was off

-There's a yellow NAV SYST warning light indicating that the initial runway heading is missing, even if I checked on the ground it was correct? Maybe not?

-TERNAV status & error show '50' in the Data Panel so it should be in good shape, right? Status 5 and error 0 km - so I'm bit puzzled about the NAV error..

-Im doing visual fixes along the way (Warthog throttle 3 way pinky switch - T1 middle position before flying over the nav point, TV when flying over) but it doesn't seem to get more accurate, it's off at every waypoint (no matter what the reading is at data panel).

-Ive never been able to get the target position where it's supposed to be, I need to look out for the target in the vicinity. Normal?

-As I was heading home after weapon release I noticed waypoint B4 (which I had changed to M4 when starting the plane as it was the target point) hadn't changed automatically to next waypoint, but instead was reading E4. I had to change waypoint manually, but it was also reading E5 instead of B5...? What does the E stand for and why did it make the change by itself?

-On the way home I accidentally made 2-3 visual fixes (was trying to turn on autopilot), messing up my NAV. I clicked on RENSA while in AKT POS, but nothing happened. I clicked it another time, nothing. I clicked it long, nothing. Shouldn't it erase the fixes I've made? Now TERNAV shows 21, which makes sense, NAV is definitely off now....

-I thought I could come home using TILS and I did the approach thing and everything went smoothly, except when descending on the base I noticed the base wasn't there... :doh: It was apparently guiding me from my (deteriorated) nav data and I did not see the TILS light in the panel either? Shouldn't it pick up TILS automatically, I was in the LAND NAV mastermode and TILS was at A (automatic).

-Well I did a normal visual landing on my starting field and as I was going down I noticed my HUD was reading the same altitude (820). I was in barometric mode (LD), switching to radar (RHM) made it show correct altitude. What was that about?

 

So it seemed pretty much everything went wrong... :megalol:

 

Anyway, any help regarding the correct way to do Viggen navigation and trying to make me understand what went wrong in my last mission is much appreciated :)

A-10C Warthog | AJS-37 Viggen | F-5E Tiger II | Mig-15bis | MiG-19P Farmer

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...

-I'm flying the Caucasus Cold Start quick mission.

-I checked the correct runway heading (atleast I thought I checked the correct thing) so I did not use 'Reference' button on the runway

 

You dont say exactly how you do the runway check ... the correct way is to select BANA-GRANZ on the computer (right console), the first three digits of the display indicate what the runway heading is, for example 270. If the airfield’s ATC sent you to the opossite heading, say 090, then while in BANA-GRANZ, press the LS button (on right console) to tell the computer that you are using the opossite heading, the display should change to 090.

 

Some airfields have two separate runways, be sure that you are using the correct one .. that would be the case if none of the two BANA headings corresponds with what the ATC gave to you.

 

-There's a yellow NAV SYST warning light indicating that the initial runway heading is missing, even if I checked on the ground it was correct? Maybe not?

 

The warning light on take off indicates that you are not using the correct runway heading.

 

-TERNAV status & error show '50' in the Data Panel so it should be in good shape, right? Status 5 and error 0 km - so I'm bit puzzled about the NAV error..

 

For proper TERNAV operation you should be flying continously at no more than 500 meters from the ground

 

-Im doing visual fixes along the way (Warthog throttle 3 way pinky switch - T1 middle position before flying over the nav point, TV when flying over) but it doesn't seem to get more accurate, it's off at every waypoint (no matter what the reading is at data panel).

 

The visual fixes should be made with the radar screen OFF (button A0 on your Hotas)

 

-As I was heading home after weapon release I noticed waypoint B4 (which I had changed to M4 when starting the plane as it was the target point) hadn't changed automatically to next waypoint, but instead was reading E4. I had to change waypoint manually, but it was also reading E5 instead of B5...? What does the E stand for and why did it make the change by itself?

 

The E# means that you are performing a visual fix ... if its flashing then its performing a radar fix. Perhaps you pressed T1 by mistake ... correct it by pressing T0 and the waypoint would be back to B#

 

-I thought I could come home using TILS and I did the approach thing and everything went smoothly, except when descending on the base I noticed the base wasn't there... :doh: It was apparently guiding me from my (deteriorated) nav data and I did not see the TILS light in the panel either? Shouldn't it pick up TILS automatically, I was in the LAND NAV mastermode and TILS was at A (automatic).

 

If the TILS light is not ON, then you failed to catch the system’s signal, most likely because you didnt approach the base from the runway direction.

 

-Well I did a normal visual landing on my starting field and as I was going down I noticed my HUD was reading the same altitude (820). I was in barometric mode (LD), switching to radar (RHM) made it show correct altitude. What was that about?

 

The barometric altitude requires that you input the proper QFE on the altimeter.

 

Bunyap’s videos are really nice, but they are not tutorials, its more of a follow alongside hime while he is learning the plane. For a navigation tutorial I suggest this one better:

 

9xiRjCA2xBM

 

Cheers.

 

For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra

For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600X - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia GTX1070ti - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar - Oculus Rift CV1

Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB

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There is something wrong with the NAV fixes and stuff around.

 

  1. RENSA position fix clearing does not work. It only clears everything.
  2. Reloading (9099) does not work. I dont have even a LS after reloading.
  3. Automatic Readjusting while @ takeoff does not work. I think the lit NAV lights should go off, after a takeoff of the selected runway.
  4. Automatic Readjusting while in TILS does not work. Nothing happens then.
  5. If I make any own pos fixes or nav points fixes, cause of wind, the nav is messed up and i cant get it back to work.

 

Although the AKT POS shows TERNAV 50, there is nothing gonna fixed by itself. Should't it?

The whole orientation of the nav polygon is wrong, I think. There is no way to get it back working (for me). RENSA clears anything (in IN mode, in OUT mode, nothing happens)

 

I dont know, maybe its just me. But somehow its kinda strange. That must concern all viggen pilots, I think. Maybe some fixes are needed?

 

I have to play around a bit more with nav fixes and see, what, when happens, and if its a bug or me.

Regards


Edited by Vannipo
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I haven't had quite the same amount of trouble, but if you are reloading the mission or selecting fly again that can cause all kinds of trouble. Something to do with various states having to be reset each time the plane is reloaded, and not all of them have been properly caught in the code so far to get them working correctly.

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RENSA position fix clearing does not work. It only clears everything.

 

I've flown the Viggen a lot ... and have never needed to use the RENSA button ... the manual says about it:

 

"The fix clearing feature is used if the wrong position is used for an own-position fix and the pilot is unable to correct the position using the fix system (such as taking a fix of the wrong waypoint). Fix clearing can have greatly detrimental effects on the navigation system as it will deteriorate the basic fix."

 

Reloading (9099) does not work. I dont have even a LS after reloading.

Again, I've never needed to reload the computer during a mission ... in fact, the manual says "The pilot can start the data transfer from the data cartridge by setting the data selector to REF/LOLA and inputting the code 9099 and pressing LS / SKU to confirm. The data cartridge can only be loaded when the aircraft is on the ground."

 

Automatic Readjusting while @ takeoff does not work. I think the lit NAV lights should go off, after a takeoff of the selected runway.

In my experience, the NAV SYST warning light illuminates only when you take off from a different runway than that stored on the computer ... make them match with BANA GRANZ and it works as intended.

 

Automatic Readjusting while in TILS does not work. Nothing happens then.

Please elaborate, I dont understand what you mean by automatic readjusting on TILS.

 

If I make any own pos fixes or nav points fixes, cause of wind, the nav is messed up and i cant get it back to work.

¿? I perform Nav fixes almost on every flight and have no problem ... for example, on this video I'm making a visual fix for waypoint B1 on the center of the island where the river meets the sea (beginning minute 0:45) ... you can clearly see that I turn off the radar screen for a visual fix and the waypoint changes to E1 while I do the fix, when I overfly the center of the island I press TV and the computer fixes B1 and advances the display to B2:

 

6IDW39JpH88

 

Although the AKT POS shows TERNAV 50, there is nothing gonna fixed by itself. Should't it?

Yes, the TERNAV should work, it uses the radar altimeter to sense the terrain profile and compare it with its terrain database to determine its position .. that means it doesnt work on very flat terrain or sea, and the aircraft needs to fly below 600 meters, since thats the highest that the radaraltimeter works.

 

The whole orientation of the nav polygon is wrong, I think. There is no way to get it back working (for me). RENSA clears anything (in IN mode, in OUT mode, nothing happens)

Its very strange .. .why dont you upload a track file of your flight, so we can check what's going on?

 

I dont know, maybe its just me. But somehow its kinda strange. That must concern all viggen pilots, I think. Maybe some fixes are needed?

At least for me, the aircraft works very welll ... surely it has some bugs, but I rarely meet them and have enjoyed many missions with this aircraft ... for example this is a shooting practice firing four mavericks against moored ships:

 

i93H3k3RPa8

 

Best regards


Edited by Rudel_chw

 

For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra

For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600X - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia GTX1070ti - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar - Oculus Rift CV1

Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB

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U mean, points 1-5 work for u?

 

I truly dont know what more to say ... :(

 

For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra

For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600X - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia GTX1070ti - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar - Oculus Rift CV1

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Thank u for ur reply and help! Nice!

 

I've flown the Viggen a lot ... and have never needed to use the RENSA button ...

Thats ok for u, if u didnt need it until now.

But the point is, it doesnt work like described in the manual.

 

 

Again, I've never needed to reload the computer during a mission ...

But it should work.

 

 

In my experience, the NAV SYST warning light illuminates only when you take off from a different runway than that stored on the computer ... make them match with BANA GRANZ and it works as intended.

I do anything u talking about. I know and understand the funtionality and how all that should work. As I understand the manual:

@takeoff the system should be reseted on the middle of the runway? So, all lights should go off?

 

 

Please elaborate, I dont understand what you mean by automatic readjusting on TILS.

As described in the manual on P261:TILS-fix.

When using a TILS approach, during phase 3 with decreasing distance to LF, automatic TILS

fixes are made to remove position errors in the navigation system based on the TILS signals.

TILS-fixes are indicated by eventual corrections in the navigations indicators.

I understand it like this:

If u are in TILS, the Nav system is updating ur own position by just "reading" the ILS-signal and fixing it with that information from the ILS. Causae with that vector, ur alignment can be checked and is known

 

 

I perform Nav fixes almost on every flight and have no problem ... for example, on this video I'm making a visual fix for waypoint B1 on the center of the island where the river meets the sea (beginning minute 0:45) ... you can clearly see that I turn off the radar screen for a visual fix and the waypoint changes to E1 while I do the fix, when I overfly the center of the island I press TV and the computer fixes B1 and advances the display to B2:

Yes, that is mostly no problem for me, too. But sometimes, anything is broken.

 

 

Yes, the TERNAV should work, it uses the radar altimeter to sense the terrain profile and compare it with its terrain database to determine its position .. that means it doesnt work on very flat terrain or sea, and the aircraft needs to fly below 600 meters, since thats the highest that the radaraltimeter works.

So, all errors and fixes should "fade away" when flying above ground?

If it shows e.g. "5-3", after a while it should change to "5-0"?

 

 

Its very strange .. .why dont you upload a track file of your flight, so we can check what's going on?

I will see, if I can find out, what u mean: There is a "tempMission.miz.trk" in a folder called "Tracks". Is that the "replay"?

 

 

Reference button on runway:

In which situations do you use it?

 

I used it this way e.g.:

After landing, getting some new ammo, rolling back to runway, I aligned myself to the runway, pressed the Ref-Button -> The CI changed the heading a bit -> NAV SYS error

Does the ref-Button pressed in LS on the runway, change the orientation of the NAV polygon in the world?

 

How can it be explained, that the NAV heading in the CI does not match the magnetic course indicator if I press the ref-button on the runway?

What is wrong there? The runway heading stored in the system?

 

Maybe there is something wrong with Batumi-Airport (The TILS leads me somewhere on the taxiway on the right while landing)?

 

 

Regards

Vannipo


Edited by Vannipo
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-There's a yellow NAV SYST warning light indicating that the initial runway heading is missing, even if I checked on the ground it was correct? Maybe not?

 

Just to clarify, the computer should recognize opposite runway or even different runway on the airport (if the reference code was used) automatically so no need to change numbers in BANA. NAV SYST pops up if the heading during takeoff doesn't match the expected one or if the initial alignment couldn't happen (for example if you're taking off with B1 already selected - you need to have LS selected for alignment to happen) or maybe (I'm not sure about this one) if you switch to NAV mode too early (you really should just before the takeoff).

 

 

Overall there should be no need to use the reference button or change the BANA / GRANS setting if you're taking from known airbase.

 

I think TERNAV beats the visual/RADAR fix, so if you have stat 5 with 0 error and you press RENSA, the fixes get deleted but you won't see any change because your navigation is already fully up to date due to TERNAV.

 

Maybe there is something wrong with Batumi-Airport (The TILS leads me somewhere on the taxiway on the right while landing)?

 

The TILS transmiter is always of the side. It will lead you in but you need to fly last meters visually, it doesn't guide you all the way down.

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... if you switch to NAV mode too early (you really should just before the takeoff).

 

Cause, If u cross a line while taxi to runway it's referencing in that wrong moment? Is it cause of this? That makes sense. I have to take care of that.

 

I think TERNAV beats the visual/RADAR fix, so if you have stat 5 with 0 error and you press RENSA, the fixes get deleted but you won't see any change because your navigation is already fully up to date due to TERNAV.

If I press the RENSA Button, all is cleared. All waypoints. I just have a B0.

U mean, I sould press RENSA only, if TERNAV is in 50?

 

The TILS transmiter is always of the side. It will lead you in but you need to fly last meters visually, it doesn't guide you all the way down.

Ok, yes, thats what I thought, too. But at some Airports the TILS approach makes more sense. Cause it leads me across the Runway vector, and if I am close to the runway lights, I just make a small turn, if the indicator on the HUD is long enough.

But on some airports (e.g. Batumi) the TILS is giuding me not accross the Runway-Heading, I am guided paralell to the runway. Always on the right side.

That's, what confuses me. At bad sight conditions, I would miss the runways at some airports. At some not.


Edited by Vannipo
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The barometric altitude requires that you input the proper QFE on the altimeter.

 

I was bit unclear with my explanation - I meant to say that altitude was frozen

in barometric mode, altitude did not change at all, it showed altitude 820 constantly no matter my real altitude. Not sure what can cause that?

 

Anyway - many thanks for your help & insight regarding the navigation, I've already spotted & corrected several errors in my procedures :)

 

Just two things I'm not yet sure whether they are working correctly or do I just lack the necessary knowledge - RENSA & not getting TILS light (does every airfield have it?). Need to do some more practice & testing :joystick:

 

EDIT: Well I did get TILS on my latest approach so I've seem to get that figured out too :)


Edited by rainyday

A-10C Warthog | AJS-37 Viggen | F-5E Tiger II | Mig-15bis | MiG-19P Farmer

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I was bit unclear with my explanation - I meant to say that altitude was frozen

in barometric mode, altitude did not change at all, it showed altitude 820 constantly no matter my real altitude. Not sure what can cause that?

 

On another aircraft I would have suspected a frozen pitot tube, but on the viggen the pitot heating is automatic, so I dont know what may have happened on your case ... I havent experienced it myself :(

 

For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra

For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600X - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia GTX1070ti - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar - Oculus Rift CV1

Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB

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Sorry for the late reply. I have never ran into any of the issues you've mentioned on a fresh start of DCS (aside from the RENSA, which I have never used). If I restart the mission or click fly-again I have all kinds of weird issues, so I just stopped doing that and don't have problems.

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About my LD altimeter getting stuck in altitude, not moving & other NAV weirdness. Here's how I got it to appear again:

 

-At/after target waypoint, I change my destination to LS (starting airfield)

-NAV mode refuses to direct me there, no direction and distance doesn't change. I can chase the nav pipper but it is basically telling me I'm on top of it (which I'm not). All other waypoints work OK.

-At starting airfield (or on the way there at some point) LD altimeter on HUD stops working, the altitude get stuck and doesn't show proper altitude data. I can change to RHM and it works and if I change to any other waypoint, LD starts to work again.

 

This is starting to feel more like a bug or am I missing something?

A-10C Warthog | AJS-37 Viggen | F-5E Tiger II | Mig-15bis | MiG-19P Farmer

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  • 4 weeks later...

Pop-up points, are they working?

 

My procedure

-Designate a target point (TAKT IN 9, confirm with the correct nav point)

-Enter a heading and distance (for example heading 315 and distance 10 -> TAKT IN 315100, confirm with the target point).

-Pop up point is created (U), I can select it but it is in the same location than the target point??

A-10C Warthog | AJS-37 Viggen | F-5E Tiger II | Mig-15bis | MiG-19P Farmer

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  • 2 months later...
About my LD altimeter getting stuck in altitude, not moving & other NAV weirdness. Here's how I got it to appear again:

 

-At/after target waypoint, I change my destination to LS (starting airfield)

-NAV mode refuses to direct me there, no direction and distance doesn't change. I can chase the nav pipper but it is basically telling me I'm on top of it (which I'm not). All other waypoints work OK.

-At starting airfield (or on the way there at some point) LD altimeter on HUD stops working, the altitude get stuck and doesn't show proper altitude data. I can change to RHM and it works and if I change to any other waypoint, LD starts to work again.

 

This is starting to feel more like a bug or am I missing something?

 

Did you figure out with it? I have the same problem. I noticed it's happened after using radar for attack with T1 and TV waypoint corrections (in my way it's anti-ship strike with Rb04 and BK). When I have instrumental landing in simple training flight, everything works fine.

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Pop-up points, are they working?

 

My procedure

-Designate a target point (TAKT IN 9, confirm with the correct nav point)

-Enter a heading and distance (for example heading 315 and distance 10 -> TAKT IN 315100, confirm with the target point).

-Pop up point is created (U), I can select it but it is in the same location than the target point??

 

Myself and a couple of people ran into Ux to Mx nav points switching issues, there is a separate thread about it here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=223453 . Creation works fine though.

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Did you figure out with it? I have the same problem. I noticed it's happened after using radar for attack with T1 and TV waypoint corrections (in my way it's anti-ship strike with Rb04 and BK). When I have instrumental landing in simple training flight, everything works fine.

 

Not really, haven't seen the bug since.

 

But I also haven't done any naval missions recently and I've used manual fixes only.

A-10C Warthog | AJS-37 Viggen | F-5E Tiger II | Mig-15bis | MiG-19P Farmer

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