Navigation in Normandy?

Umm, I don't see the problem with making the map capable of utilizing modern equipment. Sure, it's meant for WWII scenarios. Why limit it to that? Oh well. I think the map is beautiful but since I don't really fly the old birds much I doubt I'll worry much about buying it. If I could set up some kind of halfway believable but fictitious modern scenario in it then maybe it would be worth it. I'll have to think on it.

It would be pretty sweet if there were map options that could help manage the era and what kind of technology is available or not when someone is building a mission or campaign.

I've found out that changes like this wouldn't be done on the Normandy map. They would be addons and won't show unless we download and install them.

I was complaining about them showing for everybody. That would be the case and my version would stay 1944.

So, knock yourself out and install whatever floats your boat.

Not sure why anybody should fly the Hog in Normandy? It doesn't belong there.

What do you mean it doesn't belong there? Actually it belongs in Normandy / West Germany than it does in the Caucauses. A-10s actually flew over Normandy. There is no reason NOT to use the Normandy map with the Modern Aircraft and vehicles. Granted, not big "Modern Cities" but the landscape and detailing itself is externally convincing.

I'm sure there will be a beacons.lua for it and it easily modded without affecting Integrity checks and other people's play.

Why radio navigation is needed just to go sightseeing? You got me...

I don't want to quote anyone, but I thought ED were entertaining the idea of a mission editor option to be able to choose the year of the mission. Remember, still very WIP, and not sure of NavAids

Much better would be to have a different kinds of nav aids available as an mission editor resourses. This would allow to drag and drop them on the map in any location or edit as an airport nav aid. Generally in a similar way as it's possible today with units, static structures and warehouses.

From this it's an easy shoot. Just setup nav aids on the map and save as a template (for instance Normandy WW2 nav aids, Normandy 70's nav aids, etc.).

Having the nav aid as an mission editor resource would allow also to access it via script. Just imagine a scenario that the RSBN statin in Beslan gets replaced with TACAN if the airbase gets captured by blue in blue flag.

That`s right ! People talk a lot about reality of the sim. They want to get as close as possible to the reality. And then they want to fly A10 or other jets in 1944. This turns the whole thing into a comic world.

 

Do not missunderstand, the Normandy map loks fantastic and it needs WW 2 planes, nothing else. IMHO.

But if I set the year in the mission editor to 2018 it even is in the future? :D

Honestly, the Normandy map is as realistic for modern planes as the Caucasus is for A-10Cs.

It is the scenario that the mission designer puts onto the map that sets the timeline, story, mission, enemies etc.

On the topic of Navigation, though. Good old compass, stopwatch and map should do the trick. Not that accurate and a bit more challenging as the TAD or TACAN/VOR beacons, but still a good skill aviators use for decades.

If magnetic variation is modeled we can hone our skills in good old dead reckoning and stopwatch navigation. The F10 map or the kneeboard should be good enough.:pilotfly:

Even Beacons are not a precision navigation tool, depending on your aircraft...

EDIT: and for the A-10C there is that HARS which comes in handy, when the EGI fails, so using HARS from the start with the routeplan and HSI/CDI should be possible. In the LOMAC and FC1/2/3 A-10A it is the normal way to navigate...

Modern aircraft flying in WW2 Normandy?

Modern aircraft flying in WW2 Normandy

Ok, it is a given that there will be no modern Navigation to be had. At least if you fly it as a WW2 era simulation.

I would envision such as ‘Time travel’ Sim, not everyone’s cup of tea, given we fly the most up to date aircraft, with the modern Navigation aids.

I will point at an older film called ‘The Final Countdown’ movie that sends them back in time to December 6, 1941 just the day before the Japanese assault on Pearl Harbor.

While the movie gloss over the Navigation details, what they did have was provided by the Carrier itself, not by the times.

Navigation aside I would point out the airfields would provide additional problems. Those at the time being of short in length, and questionable surfaces. Oh and throw-out communications. Haven’t studied it, I couldn’t say how far back the Redundancy of such systems would be.

The fact is most modern aircraft depend on modern advances in many areas. Fuel, munitions, and least we do not forget to maintain them, as these places can only fly a limited number of hours without it.

Ok if we rule out Maintenance, and such, as we are pilots :pilotfly: and usually do not concern ourselves overly much with it. – they wouldn’t give you an aircraft not ready to fly. Or armed. –

As one commenter suggested, such Navigation-contols could be toggled maybe by year, or simply on and off.

Realistic combat missions in the modern world would, of course, be out of the question, limiting us to training missions. There have been no wars in France since the end of WW2.

We could make up such a war… but just who would be the adversaries and do we really wish to heat up a cold war.

However, wouldn't be cool to go back to WW1 and fly Bi-Planes, now that would be some dog fighting. flying over the trenches. Tossing bomb out from the cockpit only to look back at the ground to see how close or far away you hit of missed.

We enjoy the simulation of flying, I can’t be sure anyone wants to actually kill anyone. It’s a simulation where no one gets hurt, no matter how often we crash and burn.

On the topic of Navigation, though. Good old compass, stopwatch and map should do the trick. Not that accurate and a bit more challenging as the TAD or TACAN/VOR beacons, but still a good skill aviators use for decades.

If magnetic variation is modeled we can hone our skills in good old dead reckoning and stopwatch navigation. The F10 map or the kneeboard should be good enough.:pilotfly:

Except we have two different sets of what a given compass direction is, put the A-10C on a given runway and check the compass reading. Now do the same thing with the F-15C.

Now send those aircraft to a point 100 nm away at a given compass heading. They will end up in completely different places.

Originally Posted by shagrat View Post

On the topic of Navigation, though. Good old compass, stopwatch and map should do the trick. Not that accurate and a bit more challenging as the TAD or TACAN/VOR beacons, but still a good skill aviators use for decades.

If magnetic variation is modeled we can hone our skills in good old dead reckoning and stopwatch navigation. The F10 map or the kneeboard should be good enough.

Except we have two different sets of what a given compass direction is, put the A-10C on a given runway and check the compass reading. Now do the same thing with the F-15C

It would be interesting to see how people handled having such modern aids strip away, and basically, have to fly by the seat of their pants.

Except we have two different sets of what a given compass direction is, put the A-10C on a given runway and check the compass reading. Now do the same thing with the F-15C.

You could think of it as the deviation from the aircraft metal parts, electric circuits inducing an error to the system, corrected or not corrected.

The compass usually shows to the magnetic northpole, where as the runway aligns with the true north pole.

Depending on the year the magnetic variance (look for the MagVar folder for details) is accurately modeled.

I haven't flown the A-10A nor any FC-3 planes with navigation for quite a while, but I learned navigation in the Huey with all this old school methods and procedures and I am slowly getting my grip on it.

IRL in addition to a different variation you would need to check the aircrafts magnetic deviation chart and correct compass readings for this also, as well as the "normal" / backup compass would give you a drift error in turns etc.

For simple dead reckoning I guess you need to learn the "deviation" (error of your compass to sim heading) and check if magnetic variation is handled in your navigation system, already or not.

If you have the magnetic variation, like in the Huey, use real life procedures to correct it.

Nobody said it is easy or simplistic, but it is another of these typical DCS study sim challenges that keep me interested the last decades...

P.S. of course neither I or anybody else was born with a natural dead reckoning brain section. It took me a considerable time to understand most of it, I still suck at mental arithmetics and make little errors, but I am getting there. :)

I know it has been discussed at length but I still find it odd that some of us are stuck on the idea that Normandy only existed during WWII. Saying that we're breaking simulation rules (getting unrealistic) by flying modern aircraft around the Normandy map is only valid if you think of Normandy as only existing in 1944 (give or take a few years). I know the architecture is congruent with that time frame but there is absolutely no reason a person couldn't put together a realistic scenario for a modern conflict using that terrain. There, I've said my bit!

I know it has been discussed at length but I still find it odd that some of us are stuck on the idea that Normandy only existed during WWII. Saying that we're breaking simulation rules (getting unrealistic) by flying modern aircraft around the Normandy map is only valid if you think of Normandy as only existing in 1944 (give or take a few years). I know the architecture is congruent with that time frame but there is absolutely no reason a person couldn't put together a realistic scenario for a modern conflict using that terrain. There, I've said my bit!

Yep, agreed. But we will likely get No preset VORs or NDBs on the map.

Maybe a Mod can add that for modern scenarios, but I doubt there are a lot of Beacons in Normandy today...

So navigating should be interesting with a Huey, the Mirage 2000C or the A-10C using HARS.

I think we can use EGI just fine. The Ka-50 gets its ABRIS and that uses GLONASS as well. We're just not getting a map as a background for our TAD.

 

So navigating should be interesting with a Huey, the Mirage 2000C or the A-10C using HARS.

Why would I use HARS if I have the EGI available? Since the map is very detailed, flying and navigating in the Huey is very interesting, I would even challenge myself, turning off the option that allows me to see my aircraft position using the F10 map. I'd use ground references only, and the Kneeboard of course.

I don't know, why the 1944 map has "GPS" (satellites) available, but if it works, use EGI...

I don't know, why the 1944 map has "GPS" (satellites) available, but if it works, use EGI...

Probably the same reason you can fly a ~2006 modified A-10 on a 1944 map in the first place :) ED would have to go out of their way in order to take GPS from you.

If a mission designer would not like an A-10 to take advantage of GPS, they could do something like setting the EGI chance of failure to 100% after 0 minutes in the editor.

Yep, I have no Problem with modern stuff on Normandy, to the contrary. Looking forward to fly Helicopters with the detailed rolling hills, woods, treelines and riverbeds.

The thing is, missing TACAN, VORs and NDBs is more a way to better train my seat of the pants flying and dead reckoning navigation... ;)

Although it may not be "officially planned" I would be surprised if ED didn't leave the infrastructure in (or develop it to some extent) for someone to very easily mod all the modern Navaids etc. to make Normandy fully compatible with all modern aircraft and systems.

It doesn't make financial sense to spend this much time and effort on a project and purposely hamstring it for the vast majority of your audience.

I can't see them doing it themselves as that would require a TON more effort on the towns and cities to bring it up to their standard but making it easy for an "unofficial" modern version would make the map infinitely more saleable.

Funny that people would complain about an A-10 in Europe given that it was designed to fight a ground war in....

... wait for it...

Europe

Ok, so the time period isn't 1980s, but the A-10 is meant to be flown visually down in the weeds where you can see landmarks and not in the stratosphere where you need radio navaids...

Just Sayin' :)

GPS is def on the map - I just had a go with the A-10C.

Funny that people would complain about an A-10 in Europe given that it was designed to fight a ground war in....

 

... wait for it...

 

Europe

 

Ok, so the time period isn't 1980s, but the A-10 is meant to be flown visually down in the weeds where you can see landmarks and not in the stratosphere where you need radio navaids...

 

Just Sayin' :)

At night? In fog? Smoke? Flat terrain?

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Truth be told I don't think not having TAD maps and advanced GPS gadgets will be that big a problem on the Normandy '44 map.

Most if not everyone will be in WW2 birds. The map isn't designed for contemporary stuff and I can live with that.

Well you can already drop custom beacons right now, mostly ADF. I'd rather see some of that German hardware get used for the WW2 birds before I saw any modern navaids.

I must agree that it makes absolutely no difference how the map is used. Since DCS is a "sandbox" setup, everyone can use the map as he or she sees fit. No one will have to worry about their Fw190D-9 or P-51D being jumped by an F-15 or Mig-29 unless the mission author sets it up to be possible. Normandy is a map of a geographic area, nothing more. If designers want to create modern NavAids so folks can place them on the map for a mission, more power to them. You can use them or not as you desire.

Actually, what I think everyone is overlooking, is tha eventually 1.5.6 and 2.0 will be merged into 2.x. I don't know if the NavAids are determined by the version or not, but is it possible that they will be available to add by the mission editor after the merge? Also. When you have the Caucasus, Nevada, and Normandy all in the same version, will you just select your terrain when you sign on?

Yes, it will be difficult to find that insurgent truck that is hiding under a tree without having exact coordinates or nav aids in our A-10C. And that, although, as someone stated correctly, the A-10 was initially designed to fly over Europe.

But we have to keep in mind, the A-10 over Europe is something entirely different than an A-10 over Afganistan (that we usually try to replicate in Georgia ...). A-10 over Europe is NOT COIN! If there were COIN to be performed over Europe, then it would most likely not be done in an A-10.

The A-10 over Europe fights masses of tanks at the FEBA - which should be easier to spot than one or two ragheads (if it moves east to west, shoot it!).