First real problem with VKB Gunfighter Mk.II

I have been in the process of evaluating the VKB Gunfighter Mk.II / MCG Pro versus my extensive experience with the Saitek X-36/X-45/X-52 Pro and Thrustmaster Warthog A-10C sticks. So far, the VKB product has been the stick to beat: outstanding mechanically and electrically with equal or superior features in almost every way.

To date, my only complaint has been the work it takes to swap grips:

The Warthog grip can be swapped in moments with no tools and no other actions other than unscrewing the installed grip, inserting the desired grip, then screwing it in.

Removing/installing the VKB grip requires an allen wrench, carefully lining up the lock-collar before sliding on the new grip, and flashing the firmware.

I have had two 50 lb springs break. I also needed to open the grip to install/tighten a couple of screws that secured the grip to the adapter to eliminate some left/right wiggle play in the grip rotation. Once the screws were installed correctly, the grip was rock-solid stable.

I ordered the stick in October of 2017 and received a tracking number on 29 December of 2017. So I actually got the stick some time in January of 2018. So, the stick is nearly two years old.

But now I have a serious problem: a bearing on the roll axis has failed. I have disassembled the stick base, removed the springs, and tested the movement. One end still has a good bearing. The other has failed: you can feel "clunks" as you move, especially across the center. This was not only felt while moving the stick left/right, but could be seen as a jumpy input in software. The bearing is a common part number. I can get 10 of them from Amazon for almost nothing. But I haven't had any success in disassembling the axis such as pressing out the bearing or unlocking the cap that holds the axis together. If I could perform this task without breaking anything, I could repair this myself for less than $10 as soon as the pack of bearings arrives by same day Amazon Prime. But I used quite a bit of force last night and nothing budged. Not worth it to break it. I have submitted a ticket to VKB USA and I am waiting to find out what my options are.

Comparing this to the life of my first Warthog HOTAS: The trigger (first detent) on the stick stopped working, so I had to open the grip and replace the green PCB that sends the button information to the base. Other than that, the stick has been trouble-free since I ordered in in September of 2011. This particular stick suffered from minor stiction which was largely overcome by using an extension. So that is 8 years of service with only one part failure, and it is still going strong with the same level of precision/smoothness it always had. Though I should mention that the PCB for the throttle "bricked" and I had to replace it, too. After the PCB was replaced, the throttle was returned to full capability, again having only one physical problem after serving for over 8 years.

I second your comments of the WH stick.

I only replaced one button in 8+ years of service and that was because I dropped the stick and broke the left thumb switch.

Also, one bricked throttle MB (early production) and replaced with no problems for many years now.

TM have a great product with IMHO, a poorly designed gimbal.

I've just mated my TM stick to the VKB base and find it absolutely the greatest stick sensitivity and feel in flying for many years.

I thought I felt the small bump in the VKB bearing on one of the axes when installing the 50 lb springs. Before I mounted the spring I tested movements. I played with loosening and then re-tightening the bearing and it went away.

My concern is the cost for shipping from China. The shipping and duty for the WH adapter was more than the cost of the adapter.

I feel your pain and want to hear how you have resolved the issue with VKB. If they had a supplier in both the EU and US, it would be better for all of us regarding costs.

If there is an easy way to remove the bearing and replace it myself with household tools, I am all for it. The bearings are cheap. But the attempts I made last night tell me that I will need to use enough force that I could seriously damage something, so I need a correct procedure and suggested tools to apply the right force to the right part(s).

The only alternative I see is to ship it somewhere to be repaired or exchange it. But I am not expecting either of those to be cheap since I have already used it nearly 2 years.

I would think about getting another base, but if they are going to fail this way every year or two (or based on their forums, arrive with this problem out of the box), then I would be foolish to buy another after encountering one lemon.

I already thought about getting a Virpil just to compare, but the VKB device was so awesome that I didn't see the point. Now I see a reason to try to competition.

For remove the pressed bearing need a bearing extractor kit.

Or

Looks like that used bearings are not "fully compatible with 50 lbs springs + extension + Warthog 1KG grip". :)

@streakeagle - your ticket has been received and VKB HQ is on it.

Just as a side note, 2x50/axis is indeed too much force on the gimbal overall - esp. with a stick extension installed.

And - even though the Gunfighter Mk.II's gimbal is stronger in that aspect, I still only recommend 2x40/axis, max:

I only recently went to 2 x 50 lb springs after seeing recent posts here, no small conincidence that the failure occurs after making that change. I wouldn't expect the extension or the weight of the the Warthog grip to have much to do with it other than the ability to rapidly and easily pull the 50 lb springs to full defleciton. I have roller-bladed for many years and the only thing that kills good bearings has been dirt/water. They do wear over time... but the miles I skated between bearing changes were a lot more than my stick does in the roll axis. I would have expected the pitch axis to fail before the roll axis.

I am ok with 1 x 50 lb springs. I was just curious what the 2 x 50 lb spring felt like. The heavier springs felt a lot more like my own homemade F-4 B-8 stick. But the single 50 lb springs were better for helo flight.

Hopefully, the other bearings aren't damaged and will last.

For remove the pressed bearing need a bearing extractor kit.

 

Or

"

 

Looks like that used bearings are not "fully compatible with 50 lbs springs + extension + Warthog 1KG grip". :)

I would have no problem purchasing a bearing press/pull kit, though I already have a tool that might work from roller blading. The problem is that something has to be removed before trying to press/pull the bearing and I am uncertain. I see a small lock screw that might be involved. But I would rather have an exact, correct procedure rather than guess wrong and break something else besides the already damaged bearing.

Which bearing exactly has failed? The main one of the "stick" on which the grip is mounted? (That's what I expect from your comment in the first place)

Or the one on which come is mounted or the one riding on a cam?

My (very humble) knowledge says that this type of the bearing dislike tilt and asymmetrical load but in roller blades they are exposed to much higher and abrupt abuse. But maybe I am just underestimating leverage and spring effects on the twist and crushing applied on them in gimbal.

I'll keep watching as this gimbal interests me and from pictures it is going to be some work to dismantle it, remove and mount bearing. Good luck!

There are two bearings on the roll axis. One is at the end with the electronics. The other is at the end with the springs. Given that I went to 2 x 50 lb springs, it is no accident that the end with the springs is the end that failed.

I can assure you that I abused the heck out of my roller blades. I always used the hardest wheels available in very harsh outdoor environments. While it has been a few years since I last skated regularly, I never was the "glide and relax" kind of skater. I was always pushing, with the toe wheels always taking a beating. I had to rotate my wheels every time I skated because of the distances involved. In the rough environment and with my higher weight of recent years, my wheels were burning up fairly quickly. So, I was always getting new wheels which usually came with new bearings already installed. But from the mid 90s to the early 2000s, I was burning up ABEC 5 and higher quality bearings fairly regularly, especially when I came back to Florida with rougher surface, more dirt/water/mud than I ever encountered in San Diego.

I have another solution. I am satisfied that I am the cause of the problem, so regardless of how VKB handles my ticket, I have no ill will towards them. I have wanted to get the KG12 grip, but it has been out of stock for quite some time. The KG12 is available in the desktop version. So, I have ordered the KG12 desktop, which I will convert to my center cockpit mount with extension and have a whole bunch of grips to choose from: KG12, MCG Pro, SCG regular, Warthog A-10, and F/A-18C.

I may also get a Virpil since they have the B-8 style grip and will soon have the F-14. But if I can make my own B-8 and VKB releases an F-14 grip, that would be better for me.

So (immediate) the solution of your problem is to buy a new controller?

Well - but reading about you collection ... it is not big surprise :joystick:

Hopefully at the end it is going to be nothing more than replacing the faulty bearing.

That may be tricky if it is pressed in its hole and it is also pressed over the inner axis, same on the other side. In that case some skill and even special tools might be needed.

My options were:

1) Risk worse damage to save time by trying to fix the stick myself immediately.

2) Wait for VKB support leaving lots of $ laying on the table (including my new F/A-18C converted to work with the VKB) unused while "suffering" with the my original unmodified Warthog grip.

3) Buy the KG12 desktop version that is in stock, with a grip I already wanted and a 2nd 100% operational Gunfighter Mk.II.

4) Abandoning everything I already invested in the VKB to try out the Virpil, which would require undoing the VKB mod to my Warthog grip and F/A-18C grip.

The only option that produces an immediate result is option 1, but the result could be so bad that I would have to go back and pick another option. So, I decided I won't try to fix the stick until I know the best/right way to do it AND have another option available. I already have an MCG Pro, an SCG, and two Warthog adapters and I already wanted to get the KG12, so option 3 is by far the most enticing option. But I may as yet try out the Virpil, just because I would like to do so. Unknown to anyone looking at my posts, I have get paid a decent hourly rate and in recent weeks have gottent in a substantial amount of overtime at time-and-a-half pay rate. I didn't plan to spend it on another VKB stick, but I fly on my PC almost every night and doing without it is almost as bad as having a tire blow out on a car you need to drive to work every day.

So right now:

I am using the Warthog stick (as I did before getting the VKB).

I am waiting for VKB to tell me what to do to fix my existing bearing.

I am waiting for a VKB KG12 desktop Gunfighter Mk.II to be shipped.

I am pondering the Virpil stick, which might be even more appealing if I had another couple of weeks of overtime.

#50 doesn't mean 50 lb in force. It is just a value of #50. And as manual said, Max 2x #40 so in total #80 and you put what, two #50 or worse, a two custom 50 lb springs that can be anything past #40 springs strength alone.

And if you are a avid grip exchanger, simply switch the alien bolt in the grip locking mechanism with a wingnut and wing bolt. Now you can easily open and tighten the grip with two hands in second and swap to other. Or get some other thumbscrew paired with it.

Or will not be so pretty as standard that comes with it, but it will be as effective and much easier when you select the correct sized.

Got my KG12/Gunfighter 2 desktop week or two or three ago... really fast from China after ordering. The KG12 grip is disappointing compared to later products. I didn't read the product description, but expected the two buttons on top to be single press buttons.

The center button is exactly what I expected: a single press button.

The button to the left isn't a button at all, but a POV hat with NO center push. In theory, the POV hat is really a plus providing four buttons instead of one. But without a center push, it can't perform its real-life function without taking up one of the POV directions.

Given the way later grips like the MCG Pro and SCG Pro have been produced, it would have been really nice if the top button was also a POV hat with a center push.

The trigger safety is nice and works well, but unlike the MCG Pro, the safety doesn't provide any button inputs to the grip, so the in-game cockpit can't reflect the position of the safety. The MCG Pro is a benchmark in how to make a stick look and feel like a real grip while also having features that make it work exceptionally well with simulator requirements.

The KG12 would also be just a bit better if it had the historically correct checkered pattern rather than a smooth surface.

In the mean time, I haven't heard a word from VKB after they acknowledged my original inquiry about how to fix the bad bearing. Now that I have an operational Gunfighter Mk II again, I may try to fix it without their guidance when I can make the free time to do so.

If I can get it apart without damaging anything, I have also considered trying to mechanically mate the pitch and roll sensors with my real F-4 B-8 grip/stick combination. If I could accomplish this in a way that was reliable and would last a long time without needed maintenance/repairs, I would be in heaven, but also need to build a 2nd seat/pit to use the operational VKB and all these other grips... which is my long term goal anyway: one dedicated F-4 cockpit with real F-4 throttle handles/left console panels and real stick/grip with a 2nd pit being more a less an F/A-18 pit but easily modified/re-arranged to handle any DCS module by swapping out grips and side/front panels.

... it would have been really nice if the top button was also a POV hat with a center push.

 

 

The KG12 would also be just a bit better if it had the historically correct checkered pattern rather than a smooth surface.

 

Thing is this KG-12A grip was designed for Gladiator, a "entry-level" joystick, and details like push HAT and checkered surface will add (manufacturer) cost.

What you want is that VKB - never produced, KG12A in metal, in what both top button is 8 way + push HAT.

https://i.postimg.cc/bYgjxVJS/P1100739.jpg

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15626-vkb-kg-12-grip/?do=findComment&comment=273352

And, like KG-12A of Gladiator is not a replica, but a game grip based on real grip, with concessions for better usability (e.g. HAT's, the "trigger" in pinky button), same principle applied in MCG grip - loosed based in Su-57 grip.

Thing is this KG-12A grip was designed for Gladiator, a "entry-level" joystick, and details like push HAT and checkered surface will add (manufacturer) cost.

 

What you want is that VKB - never produced, KG12A in metal, in what both top button is 8 way + push HAT.

 

https://i.postimg.cc/bYgjxVJS/P1100739.jpg

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15626-vkb-kg-12-grip/?do=findComment&comment=273352

 

And, like KG-12A of Gladiator is not a replica, but a game grip based on real grip, with concessions for better usability (e.g. HAT's, the "trigger" in pinky button), same principle applied in MCG grip - loosed based in Su-57 grip.

I have seen the old posts about that. Baur's KG12 or was it KG13 also came in a Warthog compatible model, which I regret not buying.

I am primarily interested in replicating actual grips... if the grip looks and feels nearly 100% accurate and manages to squeeze in extra features, I am okay with that.

I would love it if VKB or Thrustmaster would make a 100% accurate B-8 grip with perhaps the only difference from my real grip being the updated thumb switch seen in the F-5, instead of a simple press only switch. The addition of some sort of paddle switch similar to the A-10C or F/A-18C would be useful too as many aircraft, like the F-4, had some sort of auto-pilot/stability override paddle right below the grip.

I haven't heard a word from VKB after they acknowledged my original inquiry about how to fix the bad bearing. Now that I have an operational Gunfighter Mk II again, I may try to fix it without their guidance when I can make the free time to do so.

Well, two things... ooooops, three things.

First is, I feel sorry for the time you wasted - I hate having gear sitting on the corner and not working, too.

Then, we are on a week of holiday (not we=VKB; we=the whole country of China).

And finally, although we do read 3rd party forums, we only do tech support through our home forum at VKB official site. You have opened a ticket; I will see about it. However, if you opened a ticket, and it doesn't get attention within reasonable time, the only way to speed it up is to rise the question at our home forum. Engineers are there! I am here, but you need them, not me.

:joystick:

Anyway, I will check your ticket status.

KG13

P1-M (Russian version of KG-13B) from L-29, $500.

I removed a small locking screw, which allowed me to pull the shaft that was holding the bearing to the assembly. I just need a way to press the bearing out and have new bearings on the way.

Bearing is now pressed out... waiting for bearings to arrive tomorrow, then I will have to see if I can put Humpty Dumpty back together again without damaging the new bearing (or other bearings for that matter). I suspect one of the pitch bearings may be on the verge of going because they were exposed to the same 2x#50 spring force as the bearings that damaged the roll bearing and I use pitch a lot more than roll. But I will have 9 extra bearings if I can install the new one without damaging it.

Bearings arrived tonight. I also ordered a bench vise (for some reason I have never gotten one). I pressed the first new bearing into the roll plate and it seemed that it created some friction or ruined the bearing. So I used my center punch/hammer to extract it out. I ruined another bearing trying to tap it in with a hammer. I was using a screw to try to apply pressure to the center of the bearing (like my punch), but it wouldn't go in level and I jammed the screw in the center of the bearing. So I went back to the vise and slowly pushed the third bearing in. It still felt too tight compared to the way the bearing free wheels before I press it in, but I decided to move forward.

After assembly was done, I had two leftover parts: a lock washer that looked like it went on the shaft that goes through the bearing, but I had already used one and the clearances looked correct. So I didn't disassemble everything to try to squeeze it in.

I also was left with a very small spring that I don't even remember taking out. It looks like something from a ball point pen, but I don't remember removing one from the Gunfighter and I don't remember having any broken ball point pens in the area either. If someone can tell me where it goes and why it is important to put it back in, I will do so.

With everything back together, I chose to put 2 x #40 springs the same as I am using on the new Gunfighter I have been using since this one broke. It calibrated perfectly and I am going to continue using it to verify I reassembled it correctly and to see if any other bearings are going to fail because of being damaged by using 2 x #50 springs on both axes.

So for the time being, I now have two fully operational Gunfighter Mk.II's and a whole bunch of grips I can use with either of them. If my dog didn't lay next to me on my right when I am at my PC, I would set one up with the Warthog grip to be my F-16C sidestick. I think I might be able to squeeze the stick within reach, but when my dog is laying there, I might have problems pulling the stick back. Maybe I should get one of those fancy expensive F-16 sticks that uses force sensors and doesn't move much?

I will probably need to reduce the spring force, but using the 2nd gunfighter as an F-16C sidestick is looking very practical. The movement isn't that much when you don't use an extension. Just a matter of keeping my dog out of the way.